Wonderful thread to help build the database and knowledge for all around one of the most influential movements Seiko ever introduced, the 36,000 bph 5740C. I used to think the 5740-8000 was the only model the movement was ever cased in, until now to be enlightened there were the pocket watches too. Thank you for that.

Mine is gorgeous and rebuilt by Adrian at VTA. My dial is a re-paint in that very high quality black enamel that the Japanese re-dial artists do so well, but definitely a re-paint. I did not know that when I got it but when Adrian took it apart he told me the dial was repainted and this thread now confirms it. Frankly I don't care for myself as it is so deep and black and polished.

October 1967 horseshoe 7 digit case back too

 

Previously there was a post with a different 5740-8000 dial, it read "36M" instead of "LORD MARVEL (new line) 36000"

Do you think this is a legitimate alternate dial or a repaint or a fake ?

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/is-my-seiko-lord-marvel-36000-a-fake.345373/#lg=thread-345373&slide=3

 

This is a hard one. Never seen that before, but it has also a different dial-code: 5740-8039 TAD. But the hands are definitive not original. Lumed and straight hands for a Lord Marvel? That can't be right... The Suwa logo on the dial is original. It seems to be hard to get the logo print right on the dial. But the printing looks good and in the right font.

But then again, I have a Seikomatic Weekdater with original lumed hands and bezel in my collection. I have even seen an advertisement for it.

 

Here's my 5740-0080 in stainless. They're small (38mm).

 

Hi VmaxML,

to be transparent: I'm the dealer who sold the watch that you claim is fake to a customer.

Therefore, I have some questions regarding your claims:
1. How do you know that the seahorse caseback was discontinued in December 1966? Any catalogues, ads, or archive information?
2. When you look at old catalogues (e.g. here https://d2f0ora2gkri0g.cloudfront.net/93/60/93607c34-5449-467c-a488-c073a706a682.png) the print looks more like the one on the "fake" than your "original".

My feeling is that you are jumping to conclusions too fast only because of small deviations.
Who would invest in such a good "fake" (laser engraving,...) for a 650€ watch in such small quantities?
I have some experience with Lord Marvels and would say that the watch is perfectly fine, even a very good example.

But I'm definitely happy to change my mind if you can convince me otherwise.

Best,
Sebastian

 

The Suwa logo is definitive wrong. Just take a very good look, I can show you hundreds of pictures with the correct Suwa logo. It hasn't changed in several years, is even the same on watches in the 80's era (like the 7548 series). The round dot represents the sun, at yours the square version it visible. It's still a Suwa logo, that is not the point. And there are versions with a square logo, but these are much more refined. But they don't belong on the dial of a Lord Marvel.

This is one of my own SGP versions. Clear thick printing.

This is a part of a picture from a watch of a very renowned online seller. Note the clear thick printing.

And this is your watch, to the right is a similar printing. But see the difference? Thin printing against thick printing. The arches of the logo are touching, as it should. Yours is at least a redial, and with a logo of Suwa that was only used in the late 70's on dials. Selling this watch being a 1967 watch is definitive wrong! In 1967 they used the round dot logo.

Why invest for a laser engraving? Because it's cheap and Seahorse casebacks bring more money, because they are really rare. if the Mumbai specials can make money out of it, why can't others?
In 1967 Seiko stopped using the Seahorse on all watches. So if there are watches with a Seahorse, they were using up the stock. So any high-beat 5740-8000 after december 1966 and before november 1966 could not be genuine. Why not? Because the 5740C was not available before end of november 1966. And after december 1966 they used the horseshoe. Laser engraving in China or India isn't that expensive. You can have it done, you don't have to own a laser engraving machine... Downside of laser engraving: It does not burn deep, so relief is not showing. I have even seen machined versions, but these are easy to identify, because they look really horrible. To small or fonts are misaligned. Greatest of all, the fake Seahorses are never aligned properly. The I in Seiko should be in the middle of the slots for unwinding the caseback. Seiko does that perfect, the fakes not so. A small note: Some high-beat 5740-8000 prior to november 1966 might not be genuine, because before november there were no 5740C movements. The caseback may be genuine, but does not belong to that watch. It would belong to the low-beat versions.

I have sold my share of these Lord Marvels, in various conditions. I bought them cheap (around €100), sold them for more. Now they sell for up to €800 depending on condition. So if I would spend about €300 for bringing it to top condition, I still would have a big margin. That is however not my style, I leave them as they are, just clean them up and install a new crystal. The rest is up to the new owner. I sell them for they are really worth (and that is around €300-400). Asking a price of €650, okay, if your customers are willing to pay the price, that's their business. I wouldn't.

I am sorry to prove you wrong. I am sure, you did not sell it, knowing it was a fake. We all make mistakes.

 

As I said before, there are other Lord Marvel in the 5740-series.

These are the 5740-1990 and the 5740-0010.

The 5740-1990 was the first of the series and the 5740A movement. The 5740A is ticking at 18000 beats,
They have 3 versions, the stainless steel version and, the SGP and the AGF version (Solid Gold Plated / All Gold Filled). They do have a vertical brushed dial, the printing should be: Seiko Lord Marvel (in handwritten style), Diashock 23 jewels, with 23 enlarged, and the dial code Japan 5740-1990 TAD. Hands are in dauphine shape. They are larger then the later 5740-8000 (36mm vs 35mm), and wear larger on the wrist because of the thinner bezel. The caseback is a snap on type. The engraving on the back just displays the name of the watch (Seiko Lord Marvel) in a handwritten style, the version (SS/SGP/AGF), model number (5740-1990) and the 7 digit serial number (but often this has wear on it and only the serial is visible). On the inside of the caseback is the version (SS/SGP/AGF), the model number (5740-1990), JAPAN A. And they should have a signed crown.
I have no data from what date they are produced, but I have a 1964 and a 1965 version of these (SS and AGF).

Sadly on the AGF the caseback is worn down, so only the serial is hardly visible. This one is from 1964.

And then there was the 5740-0010, it replaced the 5740-1990. These come in stainless steel and SGP and have a 5740B movement (ticking at 19800 beats). They offered a sunburst dial and a vertical brushed dial, both in SS and SGP. It measures 36mm, but due to a thicker bezel, it looks smaller than the 5740-1990. The caseback is of a screw down type, improving water resistance.
It was around from 1965 till 1966 when it got replaced by the 5740-8000.
The dial has the imposed Seiko logo, and some printing: Lord Marvel in handwritten style, and DIASHOCK 23 JEWELS and the dial code JAPAN 5740-0010 RAD or JAPAN 5740-0010 TAD. The hands are in dauphine style.
The case is a bit beefier due to the better water resistance. The caseback has the Seahorse on it, saying Waterproof. The caseback is engraved and has relief, like the low beat 5740-8000 do have.

 

Pad stamped dials vary from thick to thin stampings for sure. Whether this classifies that way or not I will not speculate.

A "redial" meaning an original dial is removed and repainted should not be called "fake" if the redial is the same model. A fake redial would be changing a 6309 dial code to 6306 or adding SCUBAPRO or such. Merely restoring a battered and faded dial to its original is not fake. It is a redial or repaint and that has a place in the hobby, but should be called out very clearly when selling.

 

I agree. But I don't see any hints that this one has been reprinted either.

 

I am sorry to see a thread that had great merit - a true Lord Marvel 5740 low beat and LM36000 high beat buyers guide- turn into a buyer/seller squabble is disappointing to me.

 

I have no hard feelings and don't want to start a squabble. But when a watch that I sold is being entitled as "fake", I cannot simply leave this uncommented.

In the end, we might all learn more about this great reference.

 

You are right. I will ask the moderators to act, and let them move the off-topic squabble in a separate thread.

 

I think this has been a civil and thoughtful discussion, so I am inclined to leave it as-is.

 

Dear VmaxNL,

very informative thread. I recently purchased a Lord Marvel from 1967 and now believe the dial is a repaint / reprint. What do you think? Thanks a lot in advance.

 

@Mrosen Looks legitimate to my eye.

Welcome to our fine forum.

Where did you get yours ?

 

I think too is original, nice example

@Mrosen Looks legitimate to my eye.

Welcome to our fine forum.

Where did you get yours ?

 

@Grammarofdesign

Thanks for your input. I purchased it from an in my opinion very trustworthy seller that sold me a really nice Seiko 5 Sportsmatic before. There are plenty of Lord Marvels around that have a "slim" Suwa sign, albeit I think the majority are indeed from the 70s. Makes you wonder why redials / reprints would all resort to a "slim" logo. Surely they are not all made by one person only. Then again, the points for a thick logo are compelling. Very interesting topic.

 

Was that aforementioned very trustworthy seller Mr. S M ?

 

As stated above, my dial is a redial and truly gorgeous. OEM applied markers and SEIKO logo and repainted original hands. Very faithful repaint of all the text and the Suwa mark and even the font and spacing of the dial code text

I like it very much and don't mind the fact.

 

Lord Marvell 5740C was (and still is) a cheap 36K, so interest in redials is rather low, so you're pretty safe with these. As far as I remeber there were only white/silver dials, so I would avoid any other colors

 

I'll share the context here publicly. Also, these are just my opinions, based on a lot of data gathering and studying, and great feedback from others.

First on the evolution of the Suwa logo, at least in the Bellmatics:
I was surprised when I first realized this, and initially thought the earlier versions must be fakes, but they are legit, and tie off to specific production date ranges:

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/a-bell-matic-research-thread.347877/page-3#post-3054973

And, more on that is also in the Appendix of the full Google Doc:

Bellmatics

MECHANICAL ALARMS Vintage SEIKO BELL-MATIC WATCHES 1966-1978 AUTHOR Dan Pellegrini dapellegrini@gmail.com DATES Created: July 26, 2022 Last Revised: August 26, 2025 CONTRIBUTORS Richard Askham John Burback Lee Harding Dan Popescu TABLE OF CONTENTS Introduction About this...

docs.google.com

And if you like data - you can see the full data sets especially for the 4006-7000, 4006-7010 and 4006-7020, here:

Image Study: Vintage Seiko BELL-MATIC Watches

An exhaustive analysis of sales listing photos, cataloged and summarized to make projections on total production numbers by model, and other attributes (dial color, etc).

seikoworldtime.com

And on the case backs, my current theory is that the stamp or die or whatever was used to mark these case backs (especially the olympic torch, the seahorse and some of the dolphins) would wear out and get replaced at various points in a production run - so you will see some case backs with a nice 3D / high relief stamping, and over the next several thousand case backs it gets more and more faint until it has a high tendency to wear right off, then we again will see nice deep stamped versions, which again wear down over the production counters / months.

Dataset of World Timers from 1964 here:
Click the toggle to view the case backs instead of the dials, they are in production order

Data Explorer: Vintage Seiko World Time Watches

Filter, sort and compare image date from hundreds of sales listings

seikoworldtime.com

And here are the 5719 and 5717 case backs (not as many collected yet):

Image Study

An exhaustive analysis of sales listing photos, cataloged and summarized to make projections on total production numbers by model, and other attributes (dial color, etc).

seikoworldtime.com

 

We continue the story of the Lord Marvel. We leave the 5740 series and go to the first Lord Marvel, the Mark I to V. A nice list about these watches is found at Special dial. That article is pretty complete, so I won't repeat it here. Instead I will post my Lord Marvel 15027E. I would have wished, Seiko would keep the finishing of the movement in the 5740-series, as the finishing is much nicer! I do also like the caseback with the engraving.

But when we mention the 1st generation of the Lord Marvel, you got to mention also the Seiko Crown. It's movement (Seiko 560 movement) was the basement, were the famous 5740 movement was build on. They came in a great variety of dials, this one is a J15003E. Nice watches, that can be bought for low prices.

 

Big thank you to the initiator and contributors to this thread. Not only is it very informative, in my view it also exemplifies the value of weighing arguments and learning from each other (which is why I’m here in the first place).

Have a peaceful new year 😊

Klaus

 

And then of course the Seiko Marvel and the Seiko Laurel. Why? Without the Laurel, there would have never been a Lord Marvel. And the Seiko Marvel gave the name to the Lord Marvel. And so on... (it goes back to the Seiko Unique and the Seiko Super...)
So a few pictures of them also...

Seiko Marvel (1957)

Seiko Laurel (1960)

Seiko Unique (1958)

Seiko Super (1958)

Seiko Super (1955)

These are watches out of my own collection.

 

At last, the automatics. The Gyro Marvel... They carry the name, but don't really belong to these handwinders, although they can be handwind...
These were the first movement of Seiko to use the Magic Fingers, which Seiko became famous for. A simple and functional system for winding the main spring.

 

I wanted to say "thank you" to all involved in this discussion - it has been very informative, thoughtful and very civil, even when there was an argument. It is great to see that there can be grown-ups on the internet, after all

May 2024 be a great year for all of us.

... still downloading that Bellmatic document, I am beyond impressed and may have already found a "New Year's resolution" in this

 

I’m looking at getting my first vintage Seiko. Does this seem legit?
Found on chrono24.

Also, are there any more sought after years for this variant with Arabic numerals? Thanks!

 

I've been thinking I need a Lord Marvel to add to my collection but I never imagined there were fakes out there. This is very helpful. Thanks everyone for contributing to this useful document. Just a question. Where does the early Seiko hand wind Cronos fit into evolution of the Lord Marvel?

 

I'm reviving this thread because I think its relevant to the larger discussion: I have been looking at the low beat lord marvels as of recent. I finished a (pre-lord) Marvel, 50s watch J14033 , the lowly 17J version and am now on the lookout for another pre-modern Seiko. I came across the attached recently and I did not realize this line had a carved logo? is that correct? I was under the impression that only the Grand Seiko first had a carved logo?

Thanks for taking a look!

 

I'm reviving this thread because I think its relevant to the larger discussion: I have been looking at the low beat lord marvels as of recent. I finished a (pre-lord) Marvel, 50s watch J14033 , the lowly 17J version and am now on the lookout for another pre-modern Seiko. I came across the attached recently and I did not realize this line had a carved logo? is that correct? I was under the impression that only the Grand Seiko first had a carved logo?

Thanks for taking a look!

View attachment 543569

That is a Seiko Lord Marvel mark 3. Can be recognized by the square shaped index for the 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11 o'clock index.

 

That is a legit dial. The Lord Marvel were the first to have the carved dial, before th GS.

Looks like clean dial to me.

 

Seiko was not the only one carving the logo on the dial, Citizen did it too.
This one is underway to me...

 

Seiko was not the only one carving the logo on the dial, Citizen did it too.
This one is underway to me...

wow, that parawater is really cool. I'm guessing early screw back, maybe ring type? I've also been looking for citizen ace, I just discovered how cool some of the early citizen are. I have restored a handful of leopards but nothing earlier.

currently how much do you think is too much for a out of service, gold fill marvel low beat like the 23J I posted? Or at least range - I'm trying to get a sense. It also seems like a lot of the gold fill have the etching polished out on the caseback.