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and quality but would they be much better than this 30+ vintage 6306 movement ?

I bought this cheap a few years back from Stephen and serviced the movement, wore it for a hour or two, checked how it ran and since then it has just sat in my watch box.

After a post last week about blue dials I brought this one out and swapped the movement into a mod and i have wore it 24/7 now for the last week apart from when wearing a beater while messing about.

After the first day it was 4 seconds fast, i am not really a accuracy freak but it's nice when there running well.

I decided to wear it for a couple of days because one, it looked good and two, i would see how consistent it is.

First couple of days it gained this 4 seconds but over the six days it has got better it seems.

Now exactly 6 days since I gave it a full wind it is nearly 11 seconds fast so the average is now +2 seconds a day.

Not bad for a vintage low dollar movement is it ? :)

Who really needs the big money watches and what can they do the likes of this can not ?
 

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love this watch...amazing
 

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watches ARE about accuracy, "what else" (long text)

Hi all ! It's been a while I've been wanting to start a thread on the subject of accuracy, and now I can do it as an answer --easier.

In the few months since I have become a member of this Forum, I have seen many comments / watch descriptions in "FS" etc. giving accuracy in terms of "seconds per day". That seems rather strange to me, as the point is not to synchronize a watch with Time but to make sure it runs at a steady rate, ideally close to Time but not at an equal speed, as this is obviously quite unattainable except by using an atomic clock, which does get pretty close. If I may develop a bit first, I will get to this lower below.

Apologies for a pedantic lesson, but going back to the race to develop Marine Chronometers accurate enough to calculate Longitude on a ship at sea (and way before that obviously to the first water clocks, hourglasses, etc.), the whole history of timekeeping devices has been a search for ever more precise devices -with development of the mechanical wristwatch arguably a most incredible feat (of course quartz movements have gone way further, but the “magic” is lost?…)

About Marine Chronometers, those interested in the “race” to develop really accurate timekeeping machines should check the fascinating chain of events between the Scilly Islands naval disaster of 1707 (where the whole English Navy ran ashore, causing the death of more than 2,000 sailors) and the subsequent English Parliament's "Longitude Act" of 1714, which resulted in the development by “lone genius” John Harrison of the first Marine Chronometers. It is a truly fascinating story, and subject of a very good BBC TV series production with Jeremy Irons, worth a watch…

Why mention all this? Because as stated above it is not only extremely difficult but also rather useless to try and match a watch’s speed with Time exactly: the real aim is (i) to get a watch to run very steadily, and (ii) to know the difference in speed between that watch and Time = know the watch's “rate”.
(see “Chronometer Rating” in related Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer )

Although fascinated by this theme, I am not equipped ar home with an electronic measuring device to check accuracy of my various watches. However, I have over the years measured watches both while wearing them and laying them flat and quiet, with very interesting results. Among others, I own a Dent (maker of Big Ben) Marine Chronometer dating to 1850 or so which uses a lever escapement and still keeps time to about 1-2 seconds per month, and a self-winding high-end Swiss watch beating 21,600 which comes close, even worn on the wrist everyday.


To come now to Seiko watches, as it happens for the past four months I have been wearing a pretty beaten up 7548-7000 (or rather a true vintage “wabied” piece of unknown servicing history, see picture attached) and to my astonishment I have discovered it gains exactly one second every six days in an extremely reliable and steady way : this means that once adjusted for this known “rate”, I would risk to say this watch is accurate down to less than a second variation per month only!!

Considering that even with quartz, analog display implies moving parts, friction, etc., I must say I am pretty amazed at how precise this 30-years old VW Beetle of a diving watch is: thanks Mr. Tokunaga!! --the man who by the way explained that Seiko knowingly sends their watches out of factory with a positive “rate” so as to help people not be late at appointments --an unforgivable offence in Japan


So, now that I've bored to sleep any readers of this comment, to my CONCLUSION: I would be very interested to hear about other people’s observations regarding accuracy of our beloved Seikos, and more generally to know if anybody else on this Forum shares my interest for truly assessing accuracy beyond a “seconds per day” approach, which clearly is a pretty meaningless, if I may be direct (…sorry John, but as you will understand this is a subject close to my heart!)
______________
Tuna Lover Philip
 

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Because for someone looking to spend big bucks on a watch accuracy has little to do with the buying decision. it's all about the name on the face.
 

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Hi all ! It's been a while I've been wanting to start a thread on the subject of accuracy, and now I can do it as an answer --easier.

In the few months since I have become a member of this Forum, I have seen many comments / watch descriptions in "FS" etc. giving accuracy in terms of "seconds per day". That seems rather strange to me, as the point is not to synchronize a watch with Time but to make sure it runs at a steady rate, ideally close to Time but not at an equal speed, as this is obviously quite unattainable except by using an atomic clock, which does get pretty close. If I may develop a bit first, I will get to this lower below.

Apologies for a pedantic lesson, but going back to the race to develop Marine Chronometers accurate enough to calculate Longitude on a ship at sea (and way before that obviously to the first water clocks, hourglasses, etc.), the whole history of timekeeping devices has been a search for ever more precise devices -with development of the mechanical wristwatch arguably a most incredible feat (of course quartz movements have gone way further, but the “magic” is lost?…)

About Marine Chronometers, those interested in the “race” to develop really accurate timekeeping machines should check the fascinating chain of events between the Scilly Islands naval disaster of 1707 (where the whole English Navy ran ashore, causing the death of more than 2,000 sailors) and the subsequent English Parliament's "Longitude Act" of 1714, which resulted in the development by “lone genius” John Harrison of the first Marine Chronometers. It is a truly fascinating story, and subject of a very good BBC TV series production with Jeremy Irons, worth a watch…

Why mention all this? Because as stated above it is not only extremely difficult but also rather useless to try and match a watch’s speed with Time exactly: the real aim is (i) to get a watch to run very steadily, and (ii) to know the difference in speed between that watch and Time = know the watch's “rate”.
(see “Chronometer Rating” in related Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer )

Although fascinated by this theme, I am not equipped ar home with an electronic measuring device to check accuracy of my various watches. However, I have over the years measured watches both while wearing them and laying them flat and quiet, with very interesting results. Among others, I own a Dent (maker of Big Ben) Marine Chronometer dating to 1850 or so which uses a lever escapement and still keeps time to about 1-2 seconds per month, and a self-winding high-end Swiss watch beating 21,600 which comes close, even worn on the wrist everyday.


To come now to Seiko watches, as it happens for the past four months I have been wearing a pretty beaten up 7548-7000 (or rather a true vintage “wabied” piece of unknown servicing history, see picture attached) and to my astonishment I have discovered it gains exactly one second every six days in an extremely reliable and steady way : this means that once adjusted for this known “rate”, I would risk to say this watch is accurate down to less than a second variation per month only!!

Considering that even with quartz, analog display implies moving parts, friction, etc., I must say I am pretty amazed at how precise this 30-years old VW Beetle of a diving watch is: thanks Mr. Tokunaga!! --the man who by the way explained that Seiko knowingly sends their watches out of factory with a positive “rate” so as to help people not be late at appointments --an unforgivable offence in Japan
So, now that I've bored to sleep any readers of this comment, to my CONCLUSION: I would be very interested to hear about other people’s observations regarding accuracy of our beloved Seikos, and more generally to know if anybody else on this Forum shares my interest for truly assessing accuracy beyond a “seconds per day” approach, which clearly is a pretty meaningless, if I may be direct (…sorry John, but as you will understand this is a subject close to my heart!)
______________
Tuna Lover Philip
Great writeup, I learn something new every day from people like yourself :clap:
 

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Expensive watches are for kudos

Run of the mill Seiko's are what I like to collect

For accuracy I have a £15 Casio.
 

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I have more confidence on the vintage Seiko in terms of accuracy than the current ones. (Grand Seiko exception)

Hence I have more vintage Seiko than the current models
 

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Expensive watches are for kudos

Run of the mill Seiko's are what I like to collect

For accuracy I have a £15 Casio.

Point taken :cool:
alternate to the $15 Casio : just install an app on your phone (e.g. Time Calibrator) and you get Atomic Clock precision at the tip of your finger...
...but not on your wrist

If you prefer to be old fashioned (aren't we all) and glance left and downwards to know time, you can also choose to purchase what represents a real (even if rather unacknowledged) revolution : a watch which synchronizes with an atomic clock somewhere and keeps "perfect time" so much easier than any other mechanical or quartz device !

And after saying all this, I'll have to repeat that the mechanical watch is probably one of man's greatest inventions ever: microchips are great, DNA sequencing is fantastic, but none of these and many other discoveries / inventions hold their rank against the spring+balance+spiral+escapement.
 

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What about tunas, marine masters or GS ? In my opinion they qualify for expensive watches also.

I like Seiko mainly because of their "average" products that have nice price to quality ratio, but they also have expensive ones. And when you buy a vintage 6105, 62MAS or King Seiko, sometimes you don't get good accuracy. You buy it anyway, because you want vintage, old school style or rarity.

Accuracy is only one part of the equation, again, IMHO.

Your 6306 movement is pretty nice indeed :)
 

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Hi all ! It's been a while I've been wanting to start a thread on the subject of accuracy, and now I can do it as an answer --easier.

In the few months since I have become a member of this Forum, I have seen many comments / watch descriptions in "FS" etc. giving accuracy in terms of "seconds per day". That seems rather strange to me, as the point is not to synchronize a watch with Time but to make sure it runs at a steady rate, ideally close to Time but not at an equal speed, as this is obviously quite unattainable except by using an atomic clock, which does get pretty close. If I may develop a bit first, I will get to this lower below.

Apologies for a pedantic lesson, but going back to the race to develop Marine Chronometers accurate enough to calculate Longitude on a ship at sea (and way before that obviously to the first water clocks, hourglasses, etc.), the whole history of timekeeping devices has been a search for ever more precise devices -with development of the mechanical wristwatch arguably a most incredible feat (of course quartz movements have gone way further, but the “magic” is lost?…)

About Marine Chronometers, those interested in the “race” to develop really accurate timekeeping machines should check the fascinating chain of events between the Scilly Islands naval disaster of 1707 (where the whole English Navy ran ashore, causing the death of more than 2,000 sailors) and the subsequent English Parliament's "Longitude Act" of 1714, which resulted in the development by “lone genius” John Harrison of the first Marine Chronometers. It is a truly fascinating story, and subject of a very good BBC TV series production with Jeremy Irons, worth a watch…

Why mention all this? Because as stated above it is not only extremely difficult but also rather useless to try and match a watch’s speed with Time exactly: the real aim is (i) to get a watch to run very steadily, and (ii) to know the difference in speed between that watch and Time = know the watch's “rate”.
(see “Chronometer Rating” in related Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer )

Although fascinated by this theme, I am not equipped ar home with an electronic measuring device to check accuracy of my various watches. However, I have over the years measured watches both while wearing them and laying them flat and quiet, with very interesting results. Among others, I own a Dent (maker of Big Ben) Marine Chronometer dating to 1850 or so which uses a lever escapement and still keeps time to about 1-2 seconds per month, and a self-winding high-end Swiss watch beating 21,600 which comes close, even worn on the wrist everyday.


To come now to Seiko watches, as it happens for the past four months I have been wearing a pretty beaten up 7548-7000 (or rather a true vintage “wabied” piece of unknown servicing history, see picture attached) and to my astonishment I have discovered it gains exactly one second every six days in an extremely reliable and steady way : this means that once adjusted for this known “rate”, I would risk to say this watch is accurate down to less than a second variation per month only!!

Considering that even with quartz, analog display implies moving parts, friction, etc., I must say I am pretty amazed at how precise this 30-years old VW Beetle of a diving watch is: thanks Mr. Tokunaga!! --the man who by the way explained that Seiko knowingly sends their watches out of factory with a positive “rate” so as to help people not be late at appointments --an unforgivable offence in Japan


So, now that I've bored to sleep any readers of this comment, to my CONCLUSION: I would be very interested to hear about other people’s observations regarding accuracy of our beloved Seikos, and more generally to know if anybody else on this Forum shares my interest for truly assessing accuracy beyond a “seconds per day” approach, which clearly is a pretty meaningless, if I may be direct (…sorry John, but as you will understand this is a subject close to my heart!)
______________
Tuna Lover Philip

Hello... Well written!!!
I think the problem is most people confuse accuracy and precision: take a look at this:
http://www.ncsu.edu/labwrite/Experimental Design/accuracyprecision.htm
If a watch gains or looses let´s say 2 seconds per day, everyday, it is beeing extremely precise, tough not accurate. So, as you say, you only have to speed it up or down to make it accurate.
Both things are important, but,in my opinion, in terms of horology, precision is far more important than accuracy. Regards. Luis.
 

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Hello... Well written!!!
I think the problem is most people confuse accuracy and precision: take a look at this:
http://www.ncsu.edu/labwrite/Experimental%20Design/accuracyprecision.htm

If a watch gains or looses let´s say 2 seconds per day, everyday, it is being extremely precise, tough not accurate. So, as you say, you only have to speed it up or down to make it accurate.
Both things are important, but,in my opinion, in terms of horology, precision is far more important than accuracy.


Regards. Luis.
Indeed, that's the whole point : you can't possibly expect a watch to be perfectly attuned to the "speed of Time" but as long as it is very precise --keeps running at the same speed even when you shake, rattle and roll it-- then it's all you need. Factoring the rate of your watch is then just a matter of habit...

...or of survival in the case of those guys who for two centuries from the early 1,800s until invention of quartz timing relied on the precision of their chronometers to calculate their position at sea.
People tend to forget that WWII was fought with mechanical chronometers aboard all warships. (check out US Marine Chronometer manufacturing boom and industrial production by Hamilton during the War... just a few years away from the first Seiko divers !!)

For the record, traditional Geneva wisdom about Rolexes:
"how do you tell apart a true and a fake Rolex?"
"the true Rolex lags or speeds by at least 3 to 5 minutes a month : if yours is more precise, it's a fake with quartz movement inside" ;)
 

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Well high end watches (Grand Seikos, Anantas, Swiss, etc.) are inherently better not just for accuracy but robustness, fit & finish, comfort, etc. don't dispute this unless you have experimented both and if you have, you won't dispute it.

That said vintage Seikos and even today's lowest end 7S26/7S36 Series can be regulated well. As a time piece rated only on accuracy, the Value Proposition favors low priced Seikos over the expensive others. However that's not the whole story.

A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Well high end watches (Grand Seikos, Anantas, Swiss, etc.) are inherently better not just for accuracy but robustness, fit & finish, comfort, etc. don't dispute this unless you have experimented both and if you have, you won't dispute it.

That said vintage Seikos and even today's lowest end 7S26/7S36 Series can be regulated well. As a time piece rated only on accuracy, the Value Proposition favors low priced Seikos over the expensive others. However that's not the whole story.

A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.
:10::93:
 

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My local watch repair man has been selling and servicing Seiko watches since the 1960's, before they were officially imported into the UK. Whenever I get a watch back from him, whether it's Swiss or oriental, it's a joy to wear, and has an amazing level of accuracy.
Everything from a fairly high end (in it's day) Longines Ultra Chron to a humble, budget Seiko Sportsmatic come back running like a dream and maintain an amazing level of accuracy.
 

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very well said...you have to appreciate quality no matter the brand...i am so drawn to fine workmanship...as a art major my eye seems to find it everywhere..too many miss some of the little pleasures in life due to this...you have to truly appreciate anyone who takes a idea.. puts that idea to paper and brings it to reality and is done with fine craftsmanship...truly amazing...




Well high end watches (Grand Seikos, Anantas, Swiss, etc.) are inherently better not just for accuracy but robustness, fit & finish, comfort, etc. don't dispute this unless you have experimented both and if you have, you won't dispute it.

That said vintage Seikos and even today's lowest end 7S26/7S36 Series can be regulated well. As a time piece rated only on accuracy, the Value Proposition favors low priced Seikos over the expensive others. However that's not the whole story.

A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.
 

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A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.

Agree !! ...and what should we call those guys who want to drop no less than $50,000 or rather upwards of $500,000 on Swiss watches? (plenty around too: good for watchmakers, but do they know what they're buying?)
 

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well anyone is able to spend there money as they like...but with money like that...think of all the Good you could do...and what we have here brings me the same amount of joy any 50k watch could ever bring me
 

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Well high end watches (Grand Seikos, Anantas, Swiss, etc.) are inherently better not just for accuracy but robustness, fit & finish, comfort, etc. don't dispute this unless you have experimented both and if you have, you won't dispute it.

That said vintage Seikos and even today's lowest end 7S26/7S36 Series can be regulated well. As a time piece rated only on accuracy, the Value Proposition favors low priced Seikos over the expensive others. However that's not the whole story.

A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.
The only point I'll dispute is comfort, which relies much more on personal taste than your other points. Each watch fits each person differently, but a higher percentage of Seikos I have come across fit my wrist compared to the Swiss stuff my father-in-law trades in and out (Corum, Rolex, Baum & Mercer, and Mont Blanc are the ones I recall from the past year), as well as watch shopping with him in Dubai over Tet. It may just be my small bony wrist though.

Your other points are spot on. It's hard to really understand the luxury watch scene without at least a small taste, but it's a night and day difference on the more tangible aspects. I'm not trying to discredit what Seiko does. They're a different level of product targeting different consumers, and an incredible value.
 

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Well high end watches (Grand Seikos, Anantas, Swiss, etc.) are inherently better not just for accuracy but robustness, fit & finish, comfort, etc. don't dispute this unless you have experimented both and if you have, you won't dispute it.

That said vintage Seikos and even today's lowest end 7S26/7S36 Series can be regulated well. As a time piece rated only on accuracy, the Value Proposition favors low priced Seikos over the expensive others. However that's not the whole story.

A guy who only appreciates Swiss watches is a snob. A guy who doesn't understand that a $5000 watch is better than a $200 watch is ignorant.

Well put! I also really enjoyed what Acier440 wrote.
For me at the end of the day I buy a watch based on a combination of things. 1st is looks. If I don't like the look of the watch, I'll give it a miss.
I've been wearing a 7006 all day and now have my Omega on. Love them both for different reasons.:grin:
 
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