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AqualandKing
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Say you've patiently saved and shopped and bought a Speedtimer on an original bracelet. A year later you decide to sell it on eBay. At the same time another seller lists the same model watch in the same condition but with an aftermarket bracelet, which looks like yours, but does not say "Seiko".
No fakes exist at this point, so potential sellers see your watch as a nicer piece by virtue of it's bracelet and pay $1,200 for your watch. The one with the aftermarket bracelet sells for $1,000
Scenario 2: this time there are fakes on the market. You list yours with it's original bracelet, and the other guy lists his with a fake bracelet. In this scenario he admits in the listing that the bracelet is not authentic. Now buyers, who are aware of the presence of fakes, aren't 100% sure yours is original. Your watch sells for $1,100 and the other guy's sells for $1,000. You've been cheated of $100.
Scenario 3. Same as above but this time the other guy claims his fake bracelet is real. Buyers don't know your watch is better than his and know that either has a high probability of being fake. You're now in direct competition with him because you're selling the exact same product from the point of view of the buyer, and competing head-to-head on price. Both watches sell for $1,000 and you've been cheated out of $200.

Don't buy fakes. You're screwing your fellow collectors.

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I Do hope your not directing those Comments at me????? Especially the Last comment “Don't buy Fakes”?
 

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IP theft is IP theft!
No matter if it is the logo on a dial or the same logo on a bracelet!

Earlier I suggested that there might be a double standard and with most of the responses to the OP's post; it is evident that this is true.

Since Seiko does not seem to give a rats as about it; why should we care or get our shorts all bunched up? :93:
 

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What do we do with old vintage watches when the aftermarket AKA fake dials are just as good and exactly mimic the original Factory dials that are irreplaceable?

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Special Member
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Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One ;)
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$
 

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AqualandKing
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18,386 Posts
IP theft is IP theft!
No matter if it is the logo on a dial or the same logo on a bracelet!

Earlier I suggested that there might be a double standard and with most of the responses to the OP's post; it is evident that this is true.

Since Seiko does not seem to give a rats as about it; why should we care or get our shorts all bunched up? :93:
My point exactly Peter👍👏👏👏
 

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Premium Member
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Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One ;)
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$
I'm #2 For the record, I believe that purveyors of fake parts are terrible people, until I need a replica part, then they are a godsend.
 

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Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One ;)
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$

i'm a "twee": a watch collector that would rather have the real thing when it comes to a seiko part but am perfectly ok with it. i will say that this sentiment may vary depending on the brand of watch.



<* shark >>><
 

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Excellent thread we have here...find it healthy as I see people not hesitating to express their personal viewpoints...while maintaining respect for viewpoints inconsistent with theirs...could serve as guiding light for many still undecided what track to follow!
 

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Poet Laureate
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Trying to pose this as a matter of preference misses the fact that buying fakes is not an action performed in a vacuum. Those purchases directly affect the market for real parts. Every fake bought lowers the value of every real part bought. That's not some abstract concern or preference, it's an economic transaction with a direct affect on the prices on other peoples watch parts. It's illegal, and it's illegal because it harms people who own the genuine parts. This is not a victim-less crime.
 

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Every fake bought lowers the value of every real part bought.
Certainly I am not one to ever defend fake parts but I do not believe your above blanket statement is always true.

For example, there are tons of fake 6309 and 6105 Dials out there yet the price of Original Dials have been increasing, sometimes rapidly. The price for Mint Condition and NOS 6105 Dials have skyrocketed. The price of Fake 6309 Dials are still where they have always been - in the gutter.
 

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If you look at the Vintage 6105-811X market Seiko has recently reissued the watch greatly adding to the supply of Authentic Made by Seiko 6105s. At the same time manufacturers in China are pumping out tons of 6105 Fakes and yet the market for original 6105-811Xs is Soaring. It does not look like the Abundance of Fakes and even Authorized Re-issues have done anything to even dent the rapid escalation of prices. If anything more awareness has increased values.
 

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Poet Laureate
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If you look at the Vintage 6105-811X market Seiko has recently reissued the watch greatly adding to the supply of Authentic Made by Seiko 6105s. At the same time manufacturers in China are pumping out tons of 6105 Fakes and yet the market for original 6105-811Xs is Soaring. It does not look like the Abundance of Fakes and even Authorized Re-issues have done anything to even dent the rapid escalation of prices. If anything more awareness has increased values.
I don't think the soaring price of 6105s is evidence that fakes aren't harming their values. Who's to say they wouldn't be even higher without fakes? Same with @seikopsycho2's example of H-link bracelets. They're going for a healthy $100, but without fakes on the market, they may go for $150, since buyers would be less fearful of spending their money on fakes.

I'm in the market for a 6139 Pogue right now, and I haven't bought one because I've had a hard telling which watches have original dials, hands and bezels. A few times I've almost bid, but haven't, because I don't want to buy a watch with fake parts. Had I bid, my bid would have made the sale price higher whether I won it or not. Is that not proof that fakes negatively affect the value for sellers of real watches by scaring aspiring buyers away from bidding?

Concerning the re-issues, they certainly cause some people who were thinking about buying vintage to buy the re-issues instead. In that way they do depress prices of vintage ones. Whether the increased awareness of the models causes increased demand that counteracts that is hard to prove, however my hunch is that you're right and the re-issue has contributed to rising prices.
I don't think fakes have that effect though, or at least not enough to counteract the negative effect. It seems very unlikely someone would decide they want to buy a 6109 or a Pogue by stumbling on a listing for a fake and saying, "Cool! I want one!". More likely they learned about the model elsewhere.
 

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I don't think the soaring price of 6105s is evidence that fakes aren't harming their values. Who's to say they wouldn't be even higher without fakes?
I think you have made excellent, very valid points and raised a good question that perhaps can never be answered. Where would the price of Vintage Originals be in the complete absence of fakes or reissues?

But the world does not exist in a vacuum ;)
 

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In addition to being illegal, fakes devalue the originals. If you own an original Speedtimer bracelet, the existence of the fake makes it worth less money
A) because folks are less willing to pay a premium for the real one because a good cheap alternative exists
B) because buyers are more worried about the authenticity of your real bracelet and won't pay as big of a premium for fear it's fake

In other words, it's unfair to owners of the real thing. It's also unfair to the Seiko Corporation

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I own some watches and parts that some people might consider expensive. For sure they probably cost more now than when I purchased them. See, the thing with me is I really don't care what they are worth.

In fact, I would rather the value of every watch or part I owned went DOWN to the point that it would not be out of the question for everyone to buy one on a whim. Again, you can't really say that I am hurt by prices being driven down. I really don't worry about the price of things I own; it's the prices of things i DONT own that I think about and if prices drop.... Great.

A perfect example and counter point to your points A and B are reproduction rubber straps. I've got a few nos oem 6105 straps that probably sell now for 10x what I paid for them and I don't think the proliferation of all these repros by ANYone has hurt their valuation....nor do I care if they did. I could probably sell them for really whatever i wanted, but that's not the point. The points are 1) that the fakes haven't hurt valuations and 2) I don't think anyone would worry about whether they are real or not.

I can't believe I just wrote four paragraphs about a fake part... LOL.

<* shark >>><
 

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Super Moderator
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What??? Manufactures do not authorize replica's being made of their products. :confused: A replica is a stolen design from a manufacture without their consent.

Seeing as we are using scenario's here, lets say that the bracelet company ROWI see a niche market for vintage Seiko bracelets (originally made by Stellux). Rowi approach Seiko and ask permission to produce copies of these bracelets and use the Seiko logo in return for $x.
(unlikely i know)

These im my view would be replica bracelets.


A FAKE is a stolen design from a manufacture without their consent.


The term "replica" is often misused in the wis world by sellers of fake watches and watch related parts to make them appear legitimate. I.E

Its ok to buy a replica but not a fake.
 

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The folk here crying about fakes, reproductions etc... seem to be missing a very important point. An item like this is only a problem if Seiko sees it as a problem. They own the IP and it is up to them and their lawyers to send out a cease and desist letters. But I can guarantee they are not going to do this as items like these bands (and the watches they fit) are products they no longer support.

Seiko sees the value in the enthusiast market. They are literally re-releasing the watches we adore as a way of introducing Seiko to Swiss watch lovers the world over.

Having a vibrant and growing vintage market adds to their brand and is dollars in the bank as it helps sell their new watches. Unlike many Swiss brands that will service and restore your 50 year old time piece, Seiko is generally not going anywhere near your vintage chronograph.

Personally I like my watches original, and I never want to see a reproduction sold as an original, but I would not hesitate for a second to buy a 1:1 reproduction part to finish off a watch.

My 2 cents.
 

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For the most part we're aware of new aftermarket parts, can tell the minuscule differences between scubapro dials, that are getting closer and closer... but on FB ( on vintage watch pages) I've given up on pointing out aftermarket shite. Oh, it's real for sure, because I bought it from Speedtimerkollxxx or Seikosix...the lines are blurring quickly and the originals are getting watered down.
Selling a 6139 on a east tech bracelet means quality a replacement part (elusive now in its own right) has been used. Clearly there's a fine market for bracelets like Jonathan's or Uncle Seiko. That's the way to go, no need to screw it up using a Seiko logo.

Rob
 
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