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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Kat, here is the part number you'll be looking for. If you'll notice the early style (69'- early 70') inner bezel uses the same part number as the later style (70' + up). You'll notice on the early bezel there is no notch and it has external teeth. The later bezel has a notch and no outer teeth.

On a side note: the later inner bezel can be used on an early model but the early model inner bezel won't work on a later model due to a different style dial spacer ring.

View attachment 488289
My watch is from July, 1972, so either ring should work. If anyone sees one, or has one available, please let me know. Thanks.

Kat


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Craftsman
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The early inner bezel will not work on a 72' model.
 

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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
The early ring will not work on a 72' model.
Good to know. Now I know I need a notched one. Thanks. I hope who ever bought that very pricy one a few weeks ago, on eBay, had an early model watch in mind, because it had no notch.


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Craftsman
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You're welcome.
 

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Looks good to me. Seller from South America. I wish the lume were in better shape, but could have Simon redo it, perhaps.


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My silver dial has been in a couple of different threads, one some fair while ago where it's judged as rough and not original and a more recent one that claims to be rough as a close up shows, but possibly correct.
I suppose it would be nice to send it to someone here in the UK who can service but initially appraise it, dial in particular to determine if it warrants a service (suggestions?). It would be interesting to see if the dial reverse has the usual marks to finally decide if correct or not.
I'm feeling it should get a service regardless as I've seen worse, owes me very little cost (so far) and as silvers go it's all I've got or likely to have.

 

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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #46 · (Edited)
My silver dial has been in a couple of different threads, one some fair while ago where it's judged as rough and not original and a more recent one that claims to be rough as a close up shows, but possibly correct.
I suppose it would be nice to send it to someone here in the UK who can service but initially appraise it, dial in particular to determine if it warrants a service (suggestions?). It would be interesting to see if the dial reverse has the usual marks to finally decide if correct or not.
I'm feeling it should get a service regardless as I've seen worse, owes me very little cost (so far) and as silvers go it's all I've got or likely to have.

Not sure why you posted this here, but after looking at your pic, your watch has an aftermarket dial. From my research, since starting my hunt for original examples, I have learned that the circular groove pattern, in the subdial, immediately reveals it’s fake. Genuine dials are completely smooth. Also, the text on the dial is off. In real dials, the A in Japan is slightly rounded on top. Yours are very pointy. I think the bezel insert and inner chapter ring may also be aftermarket. Sorry to say you own a Franken. I hope you didn’t pay a lot for it. This is just my opinion, of course.

Kat


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Hi Kat, I jumped in because there looked like being some fresh silver Pogue knowledge in this thread worth tapping into that I could grab.

My watch is a mystery, mainly this dial, as to the naked eye the sub dial is smooth but looks like circular rings when magnified, below is a web stolen pic of how pronounced the circular rings appear on a fake, much much more visible than mine.

Photograph Product Clock Font Measuring instrument



To quote a UK guy of Pogue knowledge " Well, it looks original to me, I reckon the silver R dial is preferable to the T; it just catches the light better. Nice one".

My dial hour markers have a lot of "flake" on the silver too suggesting age or of course very poor short life material of a copy/fake and my pointed A is certainly suspect at first but I see it on other "claimed originals" also in one of the threads it's been stated faint circular rings exist in yellow R resist dials. What a nightmare this game can be the more you research the harder it gets!:rolleyes:

The bezel insert is suspiciously bright and rich in colour but a ding in it matches a ding in the bezel at 73 so I was always unsure as they appear they've been together a long time.
The crystal I had replaced and the rotating insert and hands are both NOS (I hope!) from Stefan Radymski acquired quite some years ago with two yellow inserts too. So although not as the day it came from the works I had seen it as having replaced OEM parts in the main and was just concerned about this scruffy old dial.
Fortunately it owes me very little.
Thanks for the help, your score does look very nice.
 

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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #48 · (Edited)
Hi Kat, I jumped in because there looked like being some fresh silver Pogue knowledge in this thread worth tapping into that I could grab.

My watch is a mystery, mainly this dial, as to the naked eye the sub dial is smooth but looks like circular rings when magnified, below is a web stolen pic of how pronounced the circular rings appear on a fake, much much more visible than mine.

View attachment 488340


To quote a UK guy of Pogue knowledge " Well, it looks original to me, I reckon the silver R dial is preferable to the T; it just catches the light better. Nice one".

My dial hour markers have a lot of "flake" on the silver too suggesting age or of course very poor short life material of a copy/fake and my pointed A is certainly suspect at first but I see it on other "claimed originals" also in one of the threads it's been stated faint circular rings exist in yellow R resist dials. What a nightmare this game can be the more you research the harder it gets!:rolleyes:

The bezel insert is suspiciously bright and rich in colour but a ding in it matches a ding in the bezel at 73 so I was always unsure as they appear they've been together a long time.
The crystal I had replaced and the rotating insert and hands are both NOS (I hope!) from Stefan Radymski acquired quite some years ago with two yellow inserts too. So although not as the day it came from the works I had seen it as having replaced OEM parts in the main and was just concerned about this scruffy old dial.
Fortunately it owes me very little.
Thanks for the help, your score does look very nice.
Yeah, I was confused by the closeup of the subdial, too. I also noticed the black numbers and markers on your subdial are a bit sloppy.The bezel insert’s red is too bright. Could have been dinged since inserted, perhaps? Over the years the red seems to get slightly orangey. I am suspicious of the Japan script, as it looks a bit sloppy, too. One thing I’ve noticed on eBay, is that some sellers are now admitting to having refurbished these watches with all new aftermarket parts, and are asking $1500.00 for them. That is crazy! Some of the guys here have way more knowledge than me, and hopefully will weigh in with their opinions.
 

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Yeah, I was confused by the closeup of the subdial, too. The bezel insert’s red is too bright. Could have been dinged since inserted, perhaps? Over the years the red seems to get slightly orangey. I am suspicious of the Japan script, as it looks a bit sloppy, too. One thing I’ve noticed on eBay, is that some sellers are now admitting to having refurbished these watches with all new aftermarket parts, and are asking $1500.00 for them. That is crazy! Some of the guys here have way more knowledge than me, and hopefully will weigh in with their opinions.
A clever faker could fit an insert then purposely add the ding if scrupulous enough. Anyway it's all I've got and I'll have to accept it as it is.
 

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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
How is it running? Why not PM Sir Alan about it? If it’s worth fixing up, he’s your man, in the UK. He works on all of mine.I will be sending him my silver dial one, after I admire it for a few days. I am still waiting for it. He is working on a third one for me right now. The silver will be my fourth.


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My silver dial has been in a couple of different threads, one some fair while ago where it's judged as rough and not original and a more recent one that claims to be rough as a close up shows, but possibly correct.
I suppose it would be nice to send it to someone here in the UK who can service but initially appraise it, dial in particular to determine if it warrants a service (suggestions?). It would be interesting to see if the dial reverse has the usual marks to finally decide if correct or not.
I'm feeling it should get a service regardless as I've seen worse, owes me very little cost (so far) and as silvers go it's all I've got or likely to have.

Dial is legit, it has telltale R dial characteristic.
Chrono minute looks like replacement off yellow 600x but original Seiko.
 

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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Dial is legit, it has telltale R dial characteristic.
Chrono minute looks like replacement off yellow 600x but original Seiko.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by that, so I can increase my knowledge? Thanks.


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I agree with boost. I think the silver dial is legit. The “R” dials have more sloppy printing and the A’s should be pointed. The “T” dials have the flat top“A”. Here is my watch which Simon restored.

The milky white stuff on the dial is where some sort of oil mixed with some lume in the past and made a film so ignore that.





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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I agree with boost. I think the silver dial is legit. The “R” dials have more sloppy printing and the A’s should be pointed. The “T” dials have the flat top“A”. Here is my watch which Simon restored.

The milky white stuff on the dial is where some sort of oil mixed with some lume in the past and made a film so ignore that.





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I was hoping guys with more knowledge would chime in. Thanks. I am glad his watch is legit!


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Notice too that under large magnification there is some muted evidence of concentric circles. In the fakes, at least in the past, these are more pronounced like on the gold dial pictures above.

To me the AM silver and gold “R” dials are the hardest to discern. They are intentionally the most faked too.


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First Lady
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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I noticed my R dial is cleaner looking than his, which made me think his was “off”….


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I noticed my R dial is cleaner looking than his, which made me think his was “off”….


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Hey Kat, yes, to me all the R dials look off.

I think it was Tom (SP2) or Ewan who did a focused study on the differences between the 6139 R and T dials. If anyone knows where this is can you post the link?


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This dial looked OK to me — seems like the deal with the concentric circles on gold and silver “R” dials is whether or not you need magnification to see them. The close-up pics on Imgur also show how the printing on legit “R” dials isn’t necessarily all that precise. I’ve seen some that are really kind of sloppy.

FWIW, it also looks like either the sweep or sub hand is a replacement — probably the sub.
 

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Hey Kat, yes, to me all the R dials look off.

I think it was Tom (SP2) or Ewan who did a focused study on the differences between the 6139 R and T dials. If anyone knows where this is can you post the link?


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Excellent Brian, thank you.


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