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Too far gone?

2K views 17 replies 10 participants last post by  Vette Enthusiast 
#1 ·
I am looking to have this 6139-6012 checked out. It is the black dial, gold sub dial model. I would like to know whether it can be restored, if restoration can be done reasonably, and if so, who might be willing to take it on. It is rather noisy when the rotor is winding. Sometimes it will start running for a bit, but then stop. Crown is stuck, top pusher sticks a bit. Crystal is scratched up, and looks like there is a bit of corrosion on the dial.

I am really interested in learning how to take on restorations myself, but I am still a long ways out from having those skills polished, or the time to focus on building them right now. I have a cheap, basic set of watch making tools, but nothing close to what would be necessary to perform an overhaul, ... tools or experience. I acquired this watch from a family member and is my first 6139, and thus I would rather find someone to do the work on this one.

I also have a 6309-7049 that is in great shape physically, but is running terribly (- 10 min/hr) and needs a full service and evaluation, and an SKX-007 that runs reasonably well (+ a couple minutes/day), but sounds rough when the rotor spins. I do have about 8 more vintage Seikos that are not really worth much, that I would probably start my watchmaking learning on (6309-7009, 7009-8029-P, V657-8110, 6923-5060,4T57-0080).

Would love any feedback on this 6139 mess, and/or the general topic of trusted watchmakers that have experience with vintage Seikos that could take this and my other needs on. Thanks!
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#2 ·
We’re fortunate to have members in this forum who are skilled watchmakers with deep experience in restoring Seikos.

With regard to restorations, my first bit of advice is, “it’s all about the dial.” You can rebuild just about anything that has gone wrong in a 6139 movement, although some of the parts are getting expensive. And you can pretty much replace pushers, crowns, gaskets, springs, spacers, crystals, and all that other stuff. To an extent, you can even find replacement handsets, although parts availability seems to shrink a bit every month. A talented watchmaker can cure “lume rot” with a good relume. But significant damage to a dial — such as water stains, corrosion, or paint loss — isn’t likely to be repairable. So I’d argue that the dial is really the make-or-break factor.

To my eye, your dial looks to be pretty far gone. It appears to have had some water damage; a relume would help, but the markings on the sub dial look like they’re about gone. If I were thinking about having this watch restored — and I probably wouldn’t unless it has particular sentimental value — I would probably begin by looking for a replacement dial in better condition. I would also consider replacing the inner tachymeter ring, as it appears to have lost some of its text.

Both dials and tachymeter rings pop up on eBay from time to time; one of the watches that is on my list to have restored is a 6139-6012 with the gold/black dial. I found a NOS (New Old Stock) replacement dial for it last year and eventually tracked down a replacement handset also. So it is feasible, but is unlikely to be cheap.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for that analysis. The crystal is extremely scratched, which makes it worse, but it definitely looks like there is a lot of corrosion on the dial, so what you are saying make total sense to me. So it sounds like this a parts watch at best then, and there is no harm in me opening it up and tinkering with it. Any other suggestions on maximizing its usefulness? Otherwise, I am perfectly happy just using it as something that I can learn on.

So next then I will focus on another watch that I am interested in restoring, my 6309-7049. This one also has some flaws. A couple scratches on the crystal, which can obviously be remedied easily. The two more concerning ones are that I think the crown screw-down may be stripped (or less likely it is the crown), and it is dropping like 10 minutes per hour. All other functions are working fine, day/date, etc. The bezel is a little sticky but probably just needs a good cleaning/oiling. The case and dial are really in pretty good shape overall, and look to be all original, no polishing. All the other parts also appear to be all original (dial, bezel, chap ring, hands, etc.).

I know that the stripped crown screw down was difficult to repair, but I think I read a few places that it could be drilled out and there was a replacement part that could be inserted, or maybe this was the barrel, I am not sure I followed the discussion very well. I do have a 6309-7009, which may be the same movement as the 7049, and could be a parts donor for the diver (I am not a huge fan of the faceted crystal 70s watches). I have not opened one of these up yet, so I am not sure about that though. Any thoughts you have on how to proceed with this guy would also be greatly appreciated.
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#4 ·
Your watches are all very collectable, These are not the sort of watches you should learn to work on. Please pick up a couple of $10.00 watches from a flea market or fleybay and practise on those, disassemble & then reassemble a few times. also have a look at the watchmaking and tinkering forum, its a great help. good luck - enjoy most of the members here will be a great help to you
 
#5 ·
Bloody, thanks for the insight, but I think you mis-read things thus far. I have no plans to work on the 6309 right now. I am asking for recommendations on a good watch maker to take a look at this watch. I would like to get it restored. It clearly needs a good service, as it is running very slow right now. I would also like to get a new crystal put in, and address the crown screw, if that is possible.

I may tinker with the 6139, since it is not worth restoring, and there is not much value in it for me anymore, other than a learning piece. If you, or others, can convince me of a better use (that doesn't involve giving it away to someone else), then I am all ears. I cannot imagine it is worth too much in its current state (corroded dial, non-functional in anyway, crystal and case completely scratched up).

As I stated in my original post, I have all the following to tinker with as well: 6309-7009, 7009-8029-P, V657-8110, 6923-5060, 4T57-0080, which I acquired through lot purchases and other low cost means. Unless they are worth selling, .... but I don't think any of these are worth more than a couple bucks on eBay in their current conditions (other than the 6309-7009, which may be worth like 50 USD). I am primarily interested in vintage Seiko divers, chronos, sports watches (like everyone else), so these watches don't mean to much to me.
 
#6 ·
As the saying goes around here, “buy the dial”.

I have the exact same dial in similar condition and I decided to try refinishing it just for fun.
Seiko use brass dial, silver coating and then lacquer for many of these metallic look dial. Usually the lacquer deteriorate and the silver oxidize.
On this one I removed the lacquer using solvent and polish the silver base underneath and recoat it with another lacquer.
Unfortunately the minute counter marker and number have to be reapplied and i for sure don’t have the skill and patience to do redial.

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As for learning to fix the movement i wouldn’t recommend going straight into any chronograph. You would be better off doing something like 7546 Quartz which is very cheap and its swappable with 6309.
 
#7 ·
You can pay an arm and a leg for a "restored" watch. Usually I'd rather find a good solid restoration candidate and send it to a trusted watchmaker. In the end it'll cost about the same either way, but you'll know that the job was done right.

IMO your 6309-7049 is a very good restoration candidate. The dial, handset, and bezel are all good. As you note, the issue with the crown is likely a worn crown tube. This is a pain in the butt. It is possible to remove and replace the crown tube -- I have done this with a little heat and a small EZ-out -- but it's often easier to find a good replacement case and simply swap everything over. You might have a problem with the crown, though that's less likely. If that's the issue, parts are available.

As for the movement, it clearly needs something done. You could either service the movement or swap in a replacement. A replacement movement is also likely to be 40 years old and will need service anyway. So you might as well have a watchmaker service the movement and replace any parts that are worn or damaged. These are 40- to 50-year old mechanisms and things wear out or break. Dive watches like your 6309 have often led active lives, so they can be especially prone to wear and tear. The good news is that they are both durable and repairable. It's never a bad thing to pick up a parts movement if you run across one on the cheap. Send it along with your watch when you send it out for service. Your watchmaker will appreciate not having to hunt down some stupid little part.

Finally, if you're thinking about learning to service mechanical movements, a good place to start is a manual winding movement. They can be bought for relatively little money and are less complex than automatic wind movements -- and a lot less complex than chronographs. Back at the Dawn of Time, when I stated fiddling with this stuff, the popular starter movement was the Unitas (later ETA) 6497/6498, which is a manual wind pocket watch movement also used in some larger wristwatches. They're still available (both real ones and Chinese knockoffs), they're durable as hell, parts are readily available, and you can find repair videos and tutorials online.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I would have to agree with Brian on the 6139. Case looks pretty good but the dial is well past it. If you could find a suitable dial replacement, we might be able to make something out of it. Would really like to get a look at the movement to determine if there has been major water intrusion. By the looks of the dial, moisture has definitely been present. The 6309 diver looks very restorable. If it were not for the stripped crown tube, I would offer my services. I do not have any replacement tubes and understand they can be had from a few remote sources but I have not personally fitted one. If you source a case, I am happy to try and help you out with the service. I know we can source seals and a crystal with little effort.
 
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#9 ·
Glad to see you made it here Jay. :) it would be interesting to see what the dial and the dial ring actually look like under the crystal on the 6139. If the dial ring and the movement are still decent I'd say its worth getting a dial for it. I'm sure any of our repair guys ypu send the 6309 to would at least look at it to see how bad it is. The 6309 has a lot of potential to be a very nice watch.
 
#10 ·
Thanks guys, I very much appreciate the feedback.

I will see if I can get the back off of the 6139, to take a look at whether there is any corrosion in there. I suspect there will be, since the dial has corrosion, and my understanding is the two often go together. If the movement happens to be reasonably clean from what I can see (won’t try to take to rotor off), then I might start watching out for one. Any suggestions on where might be best to look (eBay seems like a snake pit for watches right now)?

As for the 6309, I agree, I would rather find a good watch maker to service it, than try to source one running well in this all original condition. Seems unlikely that one could be had for less than 500 these days. The 6309-7009 is the same movement as the 7049 right? Also any suggestions were one might find a good replacement case, and what a fair price typically would be? Most of the ones I see these days have already had one too many polishes.

I do have some mechanical movements as well. I ended up with a few 1950/60s Timex Marlins and 21’s. I know Timex is not particularly desirable, but I really like these 60s vintage Marlins and 21jewel movements, they still run strong and accurate. I would have no issues opening a couple of them up, and the two late 50s marlins are not running anyways. I have heard about the ETAs before so I will look into one of those as well. Thanks again to all of you for the wisdom and advice. I am glad I landed here, it seems like a great down to earth Seiko forum, and I hope I can return the benefit you all have given me thus far. Thanks.
 
#11 ·
Jay - On the 6309 have you had the back off / crown out and had a good look at the problem? That’s a fine looking candidate and personally I’d be doing this first to establish your diagnosis is correct If you’ve not already done so. I can see at least a couple of good looking threads in one of the photos.
 
#13 ·
I can do the crown tube repair on your 6309 if need be. I've done several. You could also do it yourself if you have the proper tools. I featured the repair here:

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#14 ·
Psycho, yes! Those are the posts I read a while back, that gave me hope there is a fix to my crown issue (if it is actually stripped). As Edinburger says, I should really see if I can get a better idea as to the crown problem before I assume I need a new case, or that I need a new tube.

Thank you for the offer of repair. Having been on the forum for a few days poking around now, I have seen that both you and Vette Enthusiast have done some amazing work in the past, and I am honored that both of you have offered your assistance. Let me play around a little more with these, and see if I can figure anything more out on my own. I am not going to go too deep into anything (don't worry bloody watches, I will not do anything well out of my abilities), but as previously stated, I should see if I can get the case backs off. I should then be able to diagnose a bit more then to make sure I (and you guys, I will post pictures) have a good idea of the issue. That way I can try to have all the materials ready to solve it,.... save everyone some time, and learn something in the process, win/win.

Guy J, that is some amazing work! You give me hope that there might eventually be a chance for the 6139 dial! I think ultimately (based on the comments thus far), the 6139 is going to take a lot of work, so I will likely need to be patient with that one, and see if I can get a better idea of its problems, and start collecting solutions. It is probably in my best interests to just focus on the 6309 first.
 
#16 ·
Chrono - I agree with others. There may be a replacement original dial out there you can buy, even if it's a different colour. There are excellent AM ones too (I've bought a couple) if you don't mind that.
I've dealt with watches that had dials in similar condition but the movement was fine.

6309 - I've changed a couple of the case tubes/crowns and have a couple in stock. They're not hard to do.

Both watches shouldn't be hard to do by a competent watchmaker near you. ;-)
 
#17 ·
I was able to get both the cases open this morning finally, I have all together too much going on right now, otherwise I would have gotten to it sooner...

As I expected the 6139, looks like there is some internal corrosion, although I have no context to tell how bad it is, and if it changes anything as far as my path forward for this watch. I would assume these watches have a gasket, which appears to be completely deteriorated. I was planning to wait and try to find a good dial replacement. I am a stickler for authenticity, so I think I will wait for the right vintage dial to come up. Then I will give dial restoration a go, based on some of the above comments, but that would be a way down the road. I guess I am interested feedback on the movement here though, and whether it looks like it could be serviced and repaired?
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The 6309 seems to be really clean inside, but again, I have little context, as I have not opened up and looked at scores of watches at this point, only collect those that I like as I come across them. I have only recently started acquiring watches that need a lot of help. byscott, you hit it on the head, I would rather collect some rougher watches at the 'right' price and then spend money to bring them up to a reasonable level, because then I at least know exactly what they are. Hopefully I can eventually start doing some of the restorations myself, but until then, I have no issues finding some good watch makers to work with, and helping support their passion in doing so.
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Any insight, observations, diagnosis on what we are looking at here is appreciated. I will probably start looking into sending off the 6309 in the coming weeks. I am not looking to do anything myself on this watch. I would like to have it completely serviced, a new crystal, and the crown issue addressed. It could possibly have a small amount of polishing, but really I have never been much of a fan of polishing unless it is done with the lightest possible hand, and this piece does not really have much in the way of heavy wear, so I am almost inclined to leave it.
 
#18 · (Edited)
The 6309 definitely looks good. Worth the spend on that one. I am right on the fence on the 6139. You can obviously see where water has wicked in around the movement retaining spring and ring. There is also a good amount of wear to the upper winding bridge and chrono bridge where the winding weight is hitting it. This tells me the watch has seen a ton of miles used hard and put away wet for lack of a better analogy. I would hold on to this as a parts salvage watch and look for a better watch to service and restore. Just my opinion. All said, still tons of usable parts on this 6139.


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