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The Case of the Vietnam "SOG" Seiko - 6119-8100/6119-8101

345K views 768 replies 108 participants last post by  oddball_8 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi All,

About six or seven years ago I was sent a copied page out of a book called "Running Recon: A Photo Journey with SOG Special Ops along the Ho Chi Minh Trail", by Frank Greco. A militaria collector friend of mine thought I might like to see the military looking Seiko 5 which purportedly was issued to Recon teams members including Indigenous "Yards" who were working with the teams.

You know the saying don't get me started, well this little bit of information got my full, undivided attention and I spent quite a bit of time studying this model and all it's period variants and thought I would share my observations.

What I discovered was that the only two models that fit the pictured watch on page 94 were the 6119-8100 & 6119-8101. There was also an earlier model which was very similar, the 6619-8060 which is dated 7/66, and a 6119-8090 dated 8/69.

The 6119-8100 is dated 3/68, while the 6119-8101 has a D/68 date and between the two models I can't really see any differences. Could it be like on the divers that there is a 0 for domestic and a 1 for export? Since I can see no mechanical or cosmetic differences in either of them I think that theory has merit.

There was a discussion about these on another forum (MWR) at the time discussing this very thing. A member contributed to the discussion by showing us his father's 8101, which had been 'issued' to him as a Green Beret instructor while stationed in Vietnam. That was some pretty heavy duty additional evidence since original records were destroyed after the Vietnam war was over.

The other thing to keep in mind is that CISO supplied largely 'sterile' equipment to SOG team members so it's logical that an issued watch couldn't be the standard issued US military type so it's easy to see why this model Seiko 5 was chosen, since it so closely resembles a military watch.

In the book, "Black Ops, Vietnam", it is stated that the head of CISO, Conrad "Ben" Baker procured more common items of equipment through open purchase in Japan so this situation seems to jibe.

Additionally this Vietnam militaria site also shows this watch as an issued SOG item: http://www.lkmilitary.com/vsf.htm

My 1966 6619-8060 was a presentation watch and is inscribed on the clasp: 1968, USAJ (US Army Japan), Basketball Champions. It's possible then that since the general model was already known that when the need arose the current clone 6119-8100 was chosen for SOG requirements..

Further, these models do turn up but they are not common and frequently from US sources.

Cheers,

Konrad










 
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#650 · (Edited)
This is the third 7005-8030 I found. I think the universe is telling me something with that. Probably that I should finally keep it…😁 Once again the watch is in excellent condition without any patina, stains… Changed the crystal and the gaskets, also as always she will get a full service and than find it’s way on my wrist.
479726
479727
479728
479729
 
#653 ·
Real Beauty that one ..... Phil and yes they are very comfortable too.

I have one I got 2 years ago but .... It Came With Water Damaged on .... One Quarter of The Dial from the
....... 3:00 to the 7:00 O'clock Markers in it but the rest works great and a nice case too.
I got it from a Women that lived here then moved to Colorado that had it from
..... Her Dad that was a MACV-SOG Veteran in Vietnam.
She gave it to me for a exchange of ... >> A Item I had that she was looking for.
It had The Original Strap on it too and it quite good condition.
But Now to find a .... Dial to complete it that would be just fine for it but that is ... Another Miracle also for
... These Watch's. But I have Hands for it also and they were in good condition also.
Louis
 
#654 ·
Hi Louis, thanks a lot. Original strap sounds good, that would be something really great. Water damage is a terrible thing especially to this lumed, arabic number dials. Crossing my fingers for you to find a good dial. On the other hand when the damage has happened during its “serving time“ I would rather stick with it. Probably frame it and see it as real piece of Seiko and also your history.
 
#655 ·
Aloha Sir,
Hi Phil, that is what I did with it and have it in a.... Plastic Container since I removed it.
Frame a .... Before and After Photo ..... then frame it all up.
I emailed her back and requested a ... Snap Shot Of her Dad in Uniform, so maybe I can actually do that with it
and write some documentary if she has some for it then Frame it nice for the wall.
Thanks for the idea for it and we will see how it goes.
Aloha
Louis
 
#657 ·
Interesting write-up. I wore a Benrus over there and it was a gift from another airman catching a freedom bird. Gave it to my younger brother when I returned home. Small by the standards of today, only 34mm or so.
 
#665 ·
Hi Phil,
These got from a seller on the bay and they are with ...Labels :
Vietnam Era U.S Military Issue Nylon O.D. Watch Straps
1965 MILS46383A ( 74181485505 )
Seller :
___
Another Seller : lovebird01 (2683 )
_
Another : Tony Saw123 ( 25889 )
_
Another : 0017265 ( 7486 )
 
#677 ·
I have OEM Seiko 6619-8060 and 6119-8100 MACV SOG Bracelets (same as pictured). They look identical but end links for the 8060 are 18mm and 8100 are 19mm. Same bracelets were used on many different Seiko models. Unfortunately my SOG Bracelets are Not For Sale but I would be willing to trade them for Stelux Chiclets.
 
#679 ·
Hi All,

About six or seven years ago I was sent a copied page out of a book called "Running Recon: A Photo Journey with SOG Special Ops along the Ho Chi Minh Trail", by Frank Greco. A militaria collector friend of mine thought I might like to see the military looking Seiko 5 which purportedly was issued to Recon teams members including Indigenous "Yards" who were working with the teams.

You know the saying don't get me started, well this little bit of information got my full, undivided attention and I spent quite a bit of time studying this model and all it's period variants and thought I would share my observations.

What I discovered was that the only two models that fit the pictured watch on page 94 were the 6119-8100 & 6119-8101. There was also an earlier model which was very similar, the 6619-8060 which is dated 7/66, and a 6119-8090 dated 8/69.

The 6119-8100 is dated 3/68, while the 6119-8101 has a D/68 date and between the two models I can't really see any differences. Could it be like on the divers that there is a 0 for domestic and a 1 for export? Since I can see no mechanical or cosmetic differences in either of them I think that theory has merit.

There was a discussion about these on another forum (MWR) at the time discussing this very thing. A member contributed to the discussion by showing us his father's 8101, which had been 'issued' to him as a Green Beret instructor while stationed in Vietnam. That was some pretty heavy duty additional evidence since original records were destroyed after the Vietnam war was over.

The other thing to keep in mind is that CISO supplied largely 'sterile' equipment to SOG team members so it's logical that an issued watch couldn't be the standard issued US military type so it's easy to see why this model Seiko 5 was chosen, since it so closely resembles a military watch.

In the book, "Black Ops, Vietnam", it is stated that the head of CISO, Conrad "Ben" Baker procured more common items of equipment through open purchase in Japan so this situation seems to jibe.

Additionally this Vietnam militaria site also shows this watch as an issued SOG item: http://www.lkmilitary.com/vsf.htm

My 1966 6619-8060 was a presentation watch and is inscribed on the clasp: 1968, USAJ (US Army Japan), Basketball Champions. It's possible then that since the general model was already known that when the need arose the current clone 6119-8100 was chosen for SOG requirements..

Further, these models do turn up but they are not common and frequently from US sources.

Cheers,

Konrad










Great write-up. I just found Running Recon at a used book store…if you like pics of anything, let me know Though frankly I believe the page you showed was the “Seiko page”. Cheers
 
#680 · (Edited)
Hello! posting here as this seems like the most complete and longest running thread on these watches. I recently inherited from my grandfather a 7005-8030r with Arabic numerals and a white dial. I was wondering if there was any lore surrounding this variation? The watch comes from Canada and as far as I can tell has belonged to my grandfather since he bought it. He was a bus driver with our local city's transit. Is there a chance that any of these were sold to the public and not acquired as military equipment? I do have an American relative who served in Vietnam but he was a mechanic not a special forces operative. I tried to take photos of all the relevant angles. I cant get into the watch as I don't have a caseback opener and I wouldn't want to mess up the seals anyways as I just had the watch in for service. Thanks for any info or links you might have about this particular variant! Cheers!
IMG-0568 IMG-0569 IMG-0570 IMG-0571
Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Gesture Clock
Watch Analog watch Clock Material property Font
Watch Analog watch Clock Automotive tire Watch accessory
Wood Motor vehicle Automotive exterior Gas Tints and shades
 
#682 ·
That matches well with my intuition. Part of the reason for my posting was that I was a bit annoyed to see this watch advertised as a SOG model everywhere its posted on the internet. So many of the watches that end up for sale on the internet have poor provenance and sellers just slap whatever nonsense they want on listing to help with sales after a 5 second Google search. If we make these posts part of the record of discussion around the model we can hopefully put an end to some of the deceptive or misleading info that is out there.
 
#683 ·
Hi all - I wanted to clue everyone in on a project that I have been working on at Military Watch Resource cataloging all of the case numbers, serial numbers, and provenance of the MACV-SOG watches. To date, I've found about 100 examples of the references commonly referred to as MACV-SOG and those that simply look alike.

I am still adding serials so if yours is not in my database and you would like to share your info, please do.

Here is a link to my spreadsheet if anyone is interested. Thank you.

 
#686 ·
thanks for putting up the spreadsheet, I will be happy to DM my pictures as well.

On another note I am quite appalled that many are claiming certain variants as SOG despite no known documentation or provenance indicating so as you have correctly pointed out in the spreadsheet.

Now even Hodinkee are guilty of the dubious claim, and of course profiting handsomely of it.


Watch Analog watch Clock Font Rectangle


Font Material property Screenshot Parallel Number
 
#688 ·
I haven’t visited in a while and just saw this now. I agree - the 6106-8219 currently has no proven documented SOG useage so the Hodinke claim is misleading. I was dubious for a long time about the 7005-8030 before solid evidence emerged. I don’t know if subsequent evidence has emerged to include the 6619-8060 but I personally only ever considered it a predecessor model..
 
#687 ·
Yeah, I think any Seiko with that sytle of dial will be claimed to be a MACV-SOG Watch. I think the fact that there isnt much information about these watches suits Hodinkee etc down to a tee, they can claim whatever they like. Its unfortunately down to the buyer to be happy with what they are buying.

That Hodinkee watch is certainly an attractive one in my eyes but if I had my heart set on a MACV_SOG watch, im not sure it would be the reference I would be buying.
 
#690 · (Edited)
I've been MIA from the Seiko SOG Thread for a long time as I have been busy on IG. A few quick comments on the Seiko 7005. Personally the 7005 is one of my favorite looking SOG watches with a beautiful case.

But I am still not convinced that the 7005 was ever issued to MACV SOG. My understanding is there was one with MACV SOG Provenance sold by the Dog Tag and 1 owned by Ben Baker also sold by the Dog Tag. Jason , the owner of the Dog Tag is extremely knowledgeable and well respected as a expert in US Special Forces insignia and Vietnam War artifacts - but he is not a watch expert or Seiko collector. Are there other 7005 examples with solid provenance? Even if the 2 - 7005 were actually owned by MACV SOG personnel it does not mean that they were issued to MACV SOG. Personal ownership does not equate to issued. Also the 6119 has been shown to be both issued and owned by numerous MACV SOG. The 6119 was an inexpensive Seiko and one of the reasons they were chosen by Ben Baker. The 7005 was a much more expensive watch and due to its much higher cost would have most likely never been procured by the US Army for any military unit.

I would like to see more examples and more solid proof before accepting that the 7005 was ever a MACV SOG issued watch.
 
#691 ·
In principal Kyle is right, the only true MACV SOG would be CISO acquired and issued watches. However I think it may be quite difficult to obtain more concrete proof since this was never officially issued. To add to the complication I think there is good probability that they are sourced from same Seiko distributor as the PX system in Asia Pacific.

I would put the 7005-7030 and also even stretch to models like 6106-8100 as “probable” MACV model since there are documented examples of said references worn or owned by SOG operatives.

Which brings me to the Hodinkee claim of Ben Baker procured 6106-8219. I found this most dubious of other SOG references due to the fact that there are no known documentation any SOG operative ever owned or worn this model. And also to add the last digit 9 in the 8219 usually denotes NA market model instead of international models of other SOG watches or even Vietnam PX ones.
 
#692 · (Edited)
Every single Seiko model watch that was made during the Vietnam War was possibly owned by individual US Military personnel or even individual MACV SOG but that does not mean a particular model was issued to a specific military unit - in this case MACV SOG.

Right Now the only known officially issued MACV SOG Seiko is the 6119 and I am still not exactly sure if it was a 8100 or 8101. Most people believe the 8100 but I still think it is very possible it was the 8101 that was sourced and issued???

Even more startling to me is the number of sellers and watch historians claiming the Seiko 6105-811X was very popular with American GIs during the Vietnam War. Simply not true. The Seiko 6105-811X arrived too late to be used extensively during the late stages of the Vietnam War. In 1971 the US started drawing down troops. The Seiko 6105-811X rarely if at all saw action in the Vietnam War but is now a much repeated Urban Seiko Myth propelled mainly by Captain Willard wearing the watch in the movie Apocalypse Now!

If Willard was real it would have been more likely that he was wearing a 6119 SOG instead of a 6105-811X :)
 
#693 ·
Every single Seiko model watch that was made during the Vietnam War was possibly owned by individual US Military personnel or even individual MACV SOG but that does not mean a particular model was issued to a specific military unit - it this case MACV SOG.

Right Now In My Opinion the only officially issued MACV SOG is the 6119 and I am still not exactly sure if it was a 8100 or 8101. Most people believe the 8100 but I still think it is very possible it was the 8101 that was sourced and issued???

Even more startling to me is the number of sellers claiming the Seiko 6105-811X was very popular with American GIs during the Vietnam War. Simply not true. The Seiko 6105-811X arrived too late to be used extensively during the late stages of the Vietnam War. In 1971 the US started drawing down troops. The Seiko 6105-811X rarely if at all saw action in the Vietnam War but is now a much repeated Urban Seiko Myth propelled mainly by Captain Willard wearing the watch in the movie Apocalypse Now!

If Willard was real it would have been more likely that he was wearing a 6119 SOG than a 6105-811X :)
It’s nice to check in every so often and revisit a subject which for me goes back almost 15years..I think you’re right about just about every model of Seiko made during the Vietnam War period being owned by at least one US serviceman.

I have various other Seiko models which have come directly from veterans which were purchased in-country PX’s or in Hong Kong, Thailand & Japan and more affordable and more available then in the US.

Its good to have more clarification regarding the 7002 and only really ever considered the 6119-81xx models as issued. I don’t know why there is an 8101 because there are as far as I can see no differences at all in the slightest between the two. The 8101 usually has a later production date which leads me to believe that the 8101 designation has more to do with there being a second production run rather than a change in specs(s).

Seiko 6105-8000 divers were always a lot more expensive and why most GI’s took a pass. I’ve rarely seen an 8000 attributed to a Vietnam vet and as far as The Willard goes - didn’t Coppola just hand his watch over during filming without a thought to if it was correct for the period?

At this point I haven’t seen any kind of service provenance on at all for a DX not even from an individual Veteran..

cheers,

Konrad
 
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