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SOG acquired tonight as part of a 3 watch Seiko grouping. Not cheap. Someone else knew what the middle watch was too. But I knew I had to have it. I can't wait to pair it with the Waltham wrist compass band!
Cool looking watches, congrats.
What source are you using to confirm that the 6106 and 6119 8090* are watches issued to special forces?
 

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Only the 6119-800x are known as SOG definites.
Lambstew,

You know this stuff waayy better than me, and I may be jumping the gun on the SOG assessment, but I like to do my homework too. I think the question of "is the 6119-800x the ONLY official SOG Seiko?" is still open for debate. I write this based on the work of the researcher I posted previously in this thread. Certainly the "Running Recon" book nails the 6119-800x's as an actual SOG watch, but I've not seen where it (or anything else) says it was the ONLY official SOG watch.

In fact, according to the pictures and pretty credible provenance posted on www.specialforceshistory.com and as was previously posted:

...Two variations of the watches were issued to cross border personnel to include a time date and non-time date. The bands were usually replaced by the veterans for the nylon strap found with the survival wrist compass. The Seiko Watch on the left was issued to Michael Sheppard of Recon Team Montana and the watch on the right was issued to Steve Perry who was assigned to MAC V SOG, OPs-80.
Picture #2
Picture #3: Here is another of the issued 6119s, from "lkmilitary.com"

So I am in the camp that there were in fact AT LEAST 2 Seiko SOG variations. The first being the Running Recon identified Seiko 6119-800x and the second being a Seiko 7005-xxxx. partially ID's by specialfoceshistory.com. It seems logical that there would be variations though the years - if not desirable from a sterility perspective. SOG ops were ongoing over a number of years and Seiko was creating and selling various watch models throughout that same time. Because these watches were "sheepdipped" civilian-based models, they are likely NOT going to be constant, unchanging models like typical milspec issued items. In fact, it would be BAD from a sterility perspective if they were.

Additionally, the 7005 variant is not the end of the discussion on possible Seiko SOG variations. As there is this little tidbit from an eBay sale back in July '15:

"That brings us to the 6119 8090 which Is the second of the examples I show In my original picture; These are Incredibly rare and I've only ever seen 3 examples; the one I own, the one In Konrad's thread and one that sold on Ebay about six or seven years ago. These watches have applied as opposed to painted detail on the face, a nice stainless case and a screw back, as well as a slight variation in location of Suwa logo, jewel count etc. All examples I've seen date to 1969. I personally believe It's highly likely that these were Issue pieces as well which their scarcity points to. The original 6119 Is a super little watch with a cracking movement but It Isn't that robust, I wonder If It was decided that a screw back was required for better water resistance In a tropical environment. It's equally possible that the better quality points to these being intended for PX retail although that wouldn't explain their rarity. By comparison the earlier 'sportsmatic' and 17 jewel DX models are extremely thick on the ground. Those two models aside I feel the 8100, 8101 and very possibly the 8090 represent an evolution of the watches actually Issued and used by SF/SOG. Until or If some documentation arises we will never know for sure and can only go by those examples found In the possession of vets and their associated stories. "

Typical eBay sales hype? Maybe. But, it does seem fairly logical to me. FWIW, I now posses the 4th example (at least according to this seller) of a 6119-8090. Mine is dated March 1970. I'll keep doing my homework and update this thread with what I find. I've contacted the seller (he is a "watch guy") through eBay to see what else he may have learned about the watch since the sale.

Lambstew, not trying to pick a fight with you, just trying to get all the information together.



 

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Lambstew,
Until or If some documentation arises we will never know for sure and can only go by those examples found In the possession of vets and their associated stories.
I think you have hit the preverbial nail right on the head.
At this point it can only be speculation that other similar variants were issued to special forces personnel. These variants were available in px's across SE Asia and were purchased by personnel who were in country. So many of the variants can have great history to them. Sellers often have great imaginations of what might have been with the items they sell.
Having learned so much more about these Seiko's I'm not disappointed that i did not winthem.
Good luck with your reasearch.
Think I will stick to hunting the 3 that have been confirmed as being issued to special forces personnel.
 

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I think you have hit the preverbial nail right on the head.
At this point it can only be speculation that other similar variants were issued to special forces personnel. These variants were available in px's across SE Asia and were purchased by personnel who were in country. So many of the variants can have great history to them. Sellers often have great imaginations of what might have been with the items they sell.
Having learned so much more about these Seiko's I'm not disappointed that i did not winthem.
Good luck with your reasearch.
Think I will stick to hunting the 3 that have been confirmed as being issued to special forces personnel.
I agree, but disagree. I think the 7005-XXXX variant is pretty well documented by specialforceshistory.com. Unless that website is somehow not reputable, which I doubt. I'll contact them and see if they have pictures of the backs of the watches.
 

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I agree, but disagree. I think the 7005-XXXX variant is pretty well documented by specialforceshistory.com. Unless that website is somehow not reputable, which I doubt. I'll contact them and see if they have pictures of the backs of the watches.
I think the 7005 is about the rarest of the 3
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
I should have answered with I personally believe..

...rather than with a sweeping statement, my apologies. I think this is the part where the announcer says stay tuned for further updates as the story unfolds..

I'm with you and think it's absolutely possible other models such as the 8090/700x co-existed alongside the 800x. The information I presented in my original post was primarily based on what I had observed between 2008-2011 & noted, while like you totally immersed in the subject matter. This period only lasted a few years with little pops up since the original post in 2008. In a nutshell, the subject matter for me personally had gone stale until this recent update on MWR:

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?69804-Seiko-SOG-6119-8100-makes-332/page2&highlight=SOG+seiko

A SOG veteran stepped into the conversation and confirmed he had been issued one and was actually wearing the 800x on his wrist while responding on the forum. There is also a picture of him about to go on patrol clearly wearing the watch.

This is what Tim had to say on the matter:

"Konrad, to answer your other questions. To my knowledge, no other types of Seiko's or any other brand were issued. When mine was issued, at FOB#4 Da Nang, only the recon guys got them. At that time, there were 10 recon teams at that FOB with 3 Americans on each team. So that's 30 guys, all U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets). There were 5 FOB's with roughly the same number of teams in each.

I have personal knowledge of this because I ran missions out of 4 of them and was assigned to them. So, that's about 150 U.S. personnel running recon for SOG in all of VN at one time, theoretically anyway. We had tremendous casualties and most of the time were understaffed. The project operated from 1964- 1973, although the bulk of the missions were run from 67-71. It was not declassified until 1994.

That should give you an idea as to why these watches are so hard to find. Also, the strap was OD green nylon, although some of the guys changed them. I didn't, and wished I'd kept mine.

If you have any more questions I'll check back tomorrow. Tim "

Tim's thorough response tipped the scales for me personally in favor of the 800X being the main SOG Seiko contenders. Tim got around to the various teams and so he saw what the men in the various teams were wearing.

Back in 2008 MWR member HexOnx presented his Vietnam Green Beret instructor father's 800X on the MWR forum, that was the post that got the initial ball rolling.

What's interesting here is that HexOnx's father wasn't a SOG Team member but a Green Beret instructor who was apparently issued it. This suggests to me broader issuance outside of the recon teams. Being a SF instructor maybe had something to do with I don't know but that's the story.

Two 800x watches have come forward from the family of a SF veteran and a statement to the effect that no other models were seen. I think the easy answer is to say that based on the evidence, I feel most comfortable with the 800x series being the model actually issued.

On the flip side you also have to consider what Tim saw personally on a broad scale but he couldn't be everywhere at once all the time and it's possible small quantities of other models were ordered when the 800x were not available.

I can't find a production date later than Dec.1968 so it's possible other models were ordered as time & attrition wore into the early 70's.

You should start a database of serial numbers for these and also for the known other models.

Keep going dude..:pDT_Armataz_01_37:

Cheers,

Konrad
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I might also suggest to a moderator that this post be made a sticky as a means to attract & collect information on the subject on a continuous basis. I.E. starting a serial number/model database. Seiko collectors have a good eye so it would be great to have an instant way to find the post..just a thought..

Cheers,

Konrad
 

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I might also suggest to a moderator that this post be made a sticky as a means to attract & collect information on the subject on a continuous basis. I.E. starting a serial number/model database. Seiko collectors have a good eye so it would be great to have an instant way to find the post..just a thought..

Cheers,

Konrad
I agree. Mods, can we make this thread sticky please?

And Lambstew, per your previous post, I think where we differ on this topic is on the 7005-XXXX variant, or what I will refer to as the "Sheppard 7005". The specialforceshistory.com site names the specific operator "Michael Sheppard" as the recipient of the SOG Supply Office-issued watch. And I read that same post on the MWR forums previously, but it all makes much more sense now, as does the passage from the eBay advert, now that I know who "Konrad" is. ; ). I think this may be a watch that Tim did not have a chance to see. As I stated earlier, I am going to request a photo of the back of the watches from specialforceshistory.com and hopefully I will get something back I can share here.

It certainly doesn't solidify the status of my two watches, but I'll continue to research, document and share what I learn here. And I'd like ti duplicate my posts on the MWR, but the darn site doesn't seem to want to confirm my registration. :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
I agree. Mods, can we make this thread sticky please?

And Lambstew, per your previous post, I think where we differ on this topic is on the 7005-XXXX variant, or what I will refer to as the "Sheppard 7005". The specialforceshistory.com site names the specific operator "Michael Sheppard" as the recipient of the SOG Supply Office-issued watch. And I read that same post on the MWR forums previously, but it all makes much more sense now, as does the passage from the eBay advert, now that I know who "Konrad" is. ; ). I think this may be a watch that Tim did not have a chance to see. As I stated earlier, I am going to request a photo of the back of the watches from specialforceshistory.com and hopefully I will get something back I can share here.

It certainly doesn't solidify the status of my two watches, but I'll continue to research, document and share what I learn here. And I'd like ti duplicate my posts on the MWR, but the darn site doesn't seem to want to confirm my registration. :confused:

I`m keeping an open mind as I said and this relates directly to the Sheppard piece. The vet on MWR couldn`t be all places all the time so it`s possible small orders of other models were placed as time went on and the 800x models became discontinued.

Good idea asking to see back pics of specialforceshistorydotcom pieces. Since CISCO records were destroyed at the end of the war all we can do is piece this Seiko history together and so far for me the 800x version is on firmer ground..

Cheers,
Konrad
 

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We are now officially "sticky" Konrad. : ) And I sent an email message to Jason at specialforceshistory.com tonight too, asking for some pictures of the backs of both watches. Fingers crossed.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
We are now officially "sticky" Konrad. : ) And I sent an email message to Jason at specialforceshistory.com tonight too, asking for some pictures of the backs of both watches. Fingers crossed.

Hey that`s awesome - Thanks Mods! :) Now that the cats out of the bag it`s the perfect time for this subject to evolve..
 

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Aloha ,
Yes they were there and I had a few also, today ... who knows where they went.
Yes these watchs were all over the place and the ... Degar -Montagnards had them.
They were the most dependable guys to have with you too. They were the guys we called ... " Halo's .
They watched everyone to make sure they did not get hurt or taken out. They were given these watchs and they prized them and kept them in good shape too. They would just sit and stare at them on their wrist and when you asked them ......
" Hey Whats Ups ", they would say .... I am a G.I too. We told them sure why not you are my Brother, and they would reply saying
..... " Yes ,Thanks Daiwi ". When around them I made very sure they were well taken off all around. I even gave them my hammock to sleep and I would sleep on the ground by the boat piers. If you ever needed protection
these were the ones to be with. They just despise the V.C. terribly.
" Professional Cross Bow "guys too. I have a few on the other Island at my Mom's house yet.
Aloha
It's a shame more was not donefor them in the end.
 

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Thought I'd share a quick update. I did receive a reply from Jason at Specialforceshistory.com. Bad News: Per his reply, as of this moment he is rather busy and said he was not sure when he could pull the watches for photography and that he wasn't particularly interested in wading into an authenticity debate. Good News: it turns out he is only about 45 miles north of me, so I have asked if I could come visit him and the watches in-person thereby relieving him of the photography efforts. I am awaiting his reply.

Also, he stressed his belief that both watches are real SOG pieces, based on two factors: the first being who he purchased the watches from and second and more interestingly, based off his personal interviews with Conrad "Ben" Baker. (Man, what I wouldn't give to know what Ben told Jason). That got me thinking, given this little nugget, does anyone know if Ben Baker is still with us? I could ask Jason via email, but I don't want to just yet, at least not until I receive a reply to my last message.

Maybe someone could inquire about Ben on the MWR site? I would do it myself, but I cannot get that site to send me a new registration email. And I've tried multiple times/emails. :confused:

Finally, I thought I'd share some pics of my two SOG suspects. They arrived this week and somewhat to my surprise they both started ticking with just a little coaxing from me. Here they are sitting next to a genuine W.C.C. wrist compass and couple back shots and one movement shot.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Thanks for the update..

Nice score on the 8090's and thanks for the update in general. Hopefully you can make a trip out to visit the watches and have that work out at some point. I have no idea if Ben Baker is still alive but that would be amazing if he was and had something to say about the Seiko's..

This 6119-8001 from Dec. 68 arrived recently..

Cheers,

Konrad




 

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Nice score on the 8090's and thanks for the update in general. Hopefully you can make a trip out to visit the watches and have that work out at some point. I have no idea if Ben Baker is still alive but that would be amazing if he was and had something to say about the Seiko's..

This 6119-8001 from Dec. 68 arrived recently..

Cheers,

Konrad




Nice piece. Congrats.

For clarity. My two watches are: an 6106-8219 from what I think is June of '68 and the 6119-8090 from April of '69. I've got a new crystal for the 8090, but part of me doesn't want to install it. But the original crystal is totally cracked and missing a small piece near on the bottom the bezel.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Hi - my apologies. I was looking at the 8090 mostly and missed the DX details.. The DX doesn't turn up much so congrats. It's a bit different looking at the dial with the 5 missing..

Cheers,
 

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One more interesting aside...apparently Ben Baker was involved in the manufacture of knives at some point in th last 15 years.. I encountered this picture on eBay recently.

[Photo deleted by moderator. Please note that pics of guns, knives and other weapons are not allowed on this forum.]
 
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