[ivorbiggin]

Will fitting lighter or heavier hands to the originals upset the regulation?
Ditto in fitting longer or shorter hands?

The reason i ask is, i have just fitted a set of aftermarket 6105 hands to a 7002 which had original hands fitted and was running approx 1 min slow over 24hrs, its now running approx 2 mins slow over 24 hrs.
Perhaps ive dislodged something.:undecided:

 

[skg7548]

Will fitting lighter or heavier hands to the originals upset the regulation?
Ditto in fitting longer or shorter hands?

The reason i ask is, i have just fitted a set of aftermarket 6105 hands to a 7002 which had original hands fitted and was running approx 1 min slow over 24hrs, its now running approx 2 mins slow over 24 hrs.
Perhaps ive dislodged something.:undecided:

There was a post once that I saw suggesting how bigger/heavier? hands slowed a quartz down.

 

[Selym]

The greater the moment of inertia of the hands, the more torque is required to turn them. In other words, all other things being equal, more massive hands will result in a decrease in balance wheel amplitude, which typically results in an increase in rate.

Best wishes,
Myles

 

[7s26b]

I'd think it's the hand imbalance (or unbalance)that's also a major issue - i.e. longer hands with small opposite ends are a bigger load . The TMI spec sheets specifically mention this and give figures for each hand.

 

[LongBike]

Might Cause Worn Parts too

Its not really a stupid question, but a good one, because many are "New" here and it
helps others to get a refreshed answer to what they don't know about yet.
A stupid question is not about asking what has been asked already.
But if its not asking a question about something, then information can not be obtained.
For many it is real helpful information if not known yet.
( Its Re-Referencing and Re-Considering past information given. )

( And we should be courteous and considerate in this areas too.
Because everyone did not join the same time. )
_________________________________________________________________

The question Asked :
It might ruin some parts as it goes and wont last that long.
It will always be dragging it-self to work, then wear down of other
parts , then Failure in the end. Maybe if you have lighter hands you be
better off.
But this is the thing, when we like how it looks, then we can not use the parts, then
that's a real ......... " Bummer ".

It always ends up that way too, looking good can be costly too.
Loving the design and looks, but cannot use it, it gets very disappointing
right ?

 

[Transporter]

So everyone that has a nice set of plongeur hands are in fact prematurely wearing their movements out. So that means that eventually someone could raise a claim against aftermarket hand suppliers for damages, if the suppliers have not put a "warning" with their product of the damage that it will cause.
Me, well I'm still going to buy and fit my hand sets, that's the way I roll, but thanks for the question, in my line of work I always tell the persons in my lessons that there is no such thing as a stupid question.

 

[ivorbiggin]

Thanks for the info guys,
7S26, is there any notes to go with that schematic. Ive studied it a few times and cant quite get the grip of it.

Ive gone from this

to this

The 6105 sweep hand has the lumed pointer at its extreme far end as opposed to the SKX sweep hand which has the lume pointer nearer to the center. The SKX hand is also longer

So i need to adjust the amplitude and then re-regulate, yes?

 

[DAHASCO]

If the hands weigh the same.....One would think...

 

[jringo8769]

well there is no stupid question...you may have to adjust it..but it should be able to handle the difference...looks great too...great work

 

[7s26b]

It's not as simple as hand weight- it's where the weight is.
From what I can find online - it seems that the unbalance figure would correspond to a movement's maximum sustainable torque figure. Force against distance.
Unbalance (U) is equal to u (unbalance mass{in grammes}) x r (radius {at a given norm of one millimeter}).
U= u times r
If we visualise a watch dial 12 0'clock up, with the hand horizontal, the unbalance is the weight in grammes (of the hand) at one millimeter from the centre of the dial.
But obviously there are two sides to the hand, the right side (long) and the left side (short) . So presumably, total U must be equal to right side U minus left side U.
All as clear as mud, I know - but it's really like a see-saw with the fulcrum point being the centre shaft and the short and long sides of the hand being on opposing ends ( counterbalancing).
http://www.slashdocs.com/msxikp/02-unbalance-and-cog.html - page one will maybe clarify my ramblings.
The NH26 hour hand shows unbalance as less than or equal to 150 milligram at 1mm.
If anyone with a clearer explanation can chip in - please do, as I'm now more confused than when I started.

 

[ivorbiggin]

Thank you 7S, i had to read your explanation through several times, and i think ive finally got the gist of it, "counterbalance" being the operative word.

Ive checked out the link you gave, it appears to be in Martian
Ill give it another go later.:grin:

 

[jringo8769]

i would love to know how to fix the problem too....

 

[ClockBloke]

In the clock game if you have a big set of hands on a clock you put a counter balance on the arse end of the hand. Some times this is an additional fat section to make the center neutral. So if you stick a pin through the fixing hole the hand should not swing one direction or the other. Another method we use is to put a weight on the arse end of the hand (underside). So maybe a dab of solder could do the trick if you have enough clearence between the hands and the dial or hour hand?


Tony

 

[rileynp]

So i need to adjust the amplitude and then re-regulate, yes?

Let's move back a few steps. Is the movement in properly serviced condition, with worn parts having been replaced, completely disassembled, surgically cleaned, and re-lubricated using dedicated watch lubricants? If no to any of the above, all bets are off when it comes to stable and predictable behavior.

I often find it useful to think of extremes to help discern what subtle changes do. Let's say that you put on a hand that weighed half a pound. The watch would stop, because the movement cannot exert enough energy to move it. With all that energy being robbed by the half-pound hand, said energy cannot get to the balance wheel and hairspring assembly, so that the amplitude ("swing") of the balance wheel is so low it cannot continue to unlock the escapement.
Now in your case, even if you theoretically put on a slightly heavier hand (or slightly more unbalanced hand), it will not be of a large enough magnitude to show as drastic a change as you report, especially if the amplitude is still within the same range as it was before the switch. So I would suspect an error occurred while installing the hand (bent post, hands touching something, debris lodged in movement, regulator or stud arm moved by accident, hairspring distorted, etc.), or the movement was not a stable performer to begin with, and your dial/hand switch is coincidental to the change in performance. Going back to my first question, you will be chasing your tail if those conditions are not met.

 

[nzwatchdoctor]

"Hands across the water, water, hands across the seeaaaa...." which would be REALLY big hands

 

[BenchGuy]

In summary:
1. Everything Noah wrote.
2. At some point, as mass is increased and center of gravity (balance) is more "off-center", performance will be affected.
3. It is unlikely that mass or balance as a result of fitting different hands is responsible for the change in accuracy you report. (Consider that the intermittent loading offered by the date jumper is probably far greater than the effect of change in mass/balance due to your conversion...so, again, the change in hands is likely insignificant).
4. Assuming the movement meets the condition requirements Noah cites, then a more likely cause is the unintentional change in position of the regulator during the removal/installation of the hands.
5. Less likely...but I've seen it happen...is the hour hand pinching down the hour wheel enough to offer more friction with the cannon pinion. Again, this is very unlikely...and if the new hour hand was correctly fitted, it isn't even a consideration.

Wear the watch normally for several days. Record the daily changes. If inconsistent or outside of accuracy for the watch, get it serviced. If consistent then regulate the watch to accomodate your wearing habits.

Regards, BG

 

[ivorbiggin]

Let's move back a few steps. Is the movement in properly serviced condition, with worn parts having been replaced, completely disassembled, surgically cleaned, and re-lubricated using dedicated watch lubricants? If no to any of the above, all bets are off when it comes to stable and predictable behavior.

The movement is a Ramon special, it was striped to the main plate, everything except the balance assy mainspring barrel assy and the pallet fork was put through an ultraclean, then given a bath in Naptha based solvent.
Reassembled using Synta 9010 on all the pivots except the pallet fork pivots which i left dry, and also a dab on the diashock jewels. The mainspring barrel was opened and a dab of Mobeius 8000 put in, i don't have the expertise to refit mainsprings yet. The barrel arbor ends was lubed with Mobeius 8301. Topside cannon pinion, and date train wheel pivots were lubed with Mobeius 8000.

I now always check the amplitude set up using the method that Noah described in a previous thread, by aligning the roller jewel with the pallet and escapement holes in the bare mainplate.

Worn parts, ive checked side play, endfloat and cleanliness, but again its still something im learning and im inexperienced.

I can hear you "tutting" from here.
:57::57::57:

Its been running fine for a couple of months but was a minute slow over 24 hrs. After changing hands and dial, it now runs 2 mins slow over the same period and moving the regulator bar makes no difference.

BG. ive been wearing it for a week now, no difference

Time to pull it apart and start over again?

 

[BenchGuy]

If you cannot effect a change in timing with the regulator, then there is definitely an issue to be resolved. Retracing your steps may just get you back where you are. Is the hairspring between the regulator pins? Is it "breathing" correctly? Seems your issue may have nothing to do with the hands. Maybe really good images of the balance/escapement area might help us help you. Regards, BG

 

[ivorbiggin]

Problem resolved.

I have removed the balance assy, working on the theory that these are mass produced watches i installed the balance into a spare main plate and checked the roller jewel for alignment with the escape and pallet jewels, it was considerably out, i had to move the stud bar from where it would usually be, from about 3 0'clock to 1 o'clock before alignment was made, so somethings not right with the H.S./balance
I then took a balance assy from a good working 7009 and installed it to the 7002, its now been running for 12 hrs and has lost approx 30 secs.
Perhaps the original was knocked when i did the dial hand swap, or maybe it was iffy and i was lucky that it was running in the first place.

Thank-you gentlemen for all your input, as always its very much appreciated.

Bench guy and Noah, thanks for steering me in the right direction :bowing:

Ivor