The Watch Site banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
No sorry, that's a somewhat beguiling title at this stage as I'm nowhere near there yet! But, I do have a query if anyone has any suggestions?


Basically, have acquired a bunch of parts to build up a 6309-7040 (albeit will have to use aftermarket dial and hands - sorry purists!) but am a little short of bits.


Any ideas whether anywhere might still carry the crystal retaining ring, or is there a decent substitute or DIY alternative?


Also, in Isthmus' superb guide in point 2 under 'Movement' he mentions the movement spacer and pressure spring. Well, I have the off white notched plastic movement gubbins, but a bit confused as to the pressure spring - I do have what looks like a metal notched spacer but it doesn't really look like a spring...


Could anybody point me in the right direction here?


If it helps, I'll post up pics as to what I do have in front of me - have to be tomorrow though as it's fast approaching 2am UK time, and I'm knackered from the mental strain of trying to work out what goes where....


thanks guys,


Howie
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,224 Posts
http://larrybiggs.net/scwf/index.php?mod=103&action=1&id=1149944477


Above contains a nice exploded diagram from cobrajet25 of the 6309 divers case. There is indeed a metal case ring and casing spring that is supposed to be in place- numbers 4 and 5 in the diagram. Sometimes a plastic case ring (or combination dial holding ring/case ring from a 6309 dress watch) is substituted during a "repair", which may or may not work depending on it's dimensions and how well it keeps the movement from moving in the case and prevents the oscillating weight from rubbing on anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,024 Posts
The spring attached to the metal spacer, along with the bezel shim, and the tiny washer on the crown/stem assembly are the three most commonly missing/rare parts of the 6309 case assembly for the following reasons.

1- The spring is made of inferior metal and corrodes, and so is often removed during servicing, restoration, or cobbling.

2- The bezel shim is made of very thin metal and is commonly stuck to the original bezel insert, so it's either overlooked or is bent to the point of uselessness, so often removed during replacement of the bezel insert.

3- The crown stem assembly has a spring that commonly corrodes and can need replacement. When removing this spring the tiny washer can be lost, and although the assembly will work without it while in place in the watch, it lacks strength and stability.


Jake B
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks all for your replies, really useful stuff.


I am lacking then a few bits - posted elsewhere re the crown stem spring and washer - but the movement pressure spring was a new on one me. Tried a brief assemble using movement and plastic movement spacer then screwed on the back - though without gasket at this point or inserting crown stem - and there did seem to be some rattle. May have been as there was no crown to hold it in place, or the spring might be more fundamental than I realised!


Going to be sending the assembled piece of for a service, I wonder if the missing spring might be replaced or substituted at that point?


The bezel shim is a curious one, I do have a wafer thin washer type affair to the same diameter as the bezel insert - so this goes in between? I will put up pics of what I have.



Oh, hello again Clockworks, hope all well!


cheers, Howie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK, so here's the parts laid out, this is what I have.





The plastic movement holder, and unidentified metal ring! Can anyone identify this?





Bezel and inserts. Are the thin metal 'washers' the shims?








And lastly, the crowns .. no springs or washers! Apologies for awful focus, just couldn't nail it.





So, assuming the parts all clean up and the movements are serviceable, does this look like the basis for a rebuild guys?


Thanks all,


Howie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
clockworks said:
Crystal retaining rings are available from an eBay seller in the Philippines: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130401171101


I've had quite a few 6309s, and all of them just had the plastic ring, no spring. Not sure if there should be a spring, but all of mine are nice and tight without one.

Any idea if those crystal retaining rings are NOS or instead left over from spares/repairs? As many of the Philippines 6309's are restored I presumed that some of their spare parts might be from non-runners that have been dismantled...?


edit: must learn to scroll down! Specifies new....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
They are new reproductions. I've fitted 2 so far. They fit the case perfectly, but may need sanding down very slightly on the inside edge to clear the bevelled edge of the crystal. Easy job that takes a couple of minutes with a small piece of medium wet-or-dry, and ensures a perfect fit.
The original rings seem to have been cast from some kind of "monkey metal", while these repros are machined.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
clockworks said:
They are new reproductions. I've fitted 2 so far. They fit the case perfectly, but may need sanding down very slightly on the inside edge to clear the bevelled edge of the crystal. Easy job that takes a couple of minutes with a small piece of medium wet-or-dry, and ensures a perfect fit.
The original rings seem to have been cast from some kind of "monkey metal", while these repros are machined.

Sounds good with me! Just checking first with KKH services in Guildford whether they can get hold of any first, less waiting time or risk of loss in the post...


I did notice one thing interesting, to go back to the movement pressure spring query - seems there is an aftermarket alternative by way of a metal movement spacer, slots over the movement once its in the case, notched to fit around the crown stem. Suspect that these might be what those odd things are in my pic with the plastic movement rings....


Thanks again mate,


Howie
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
33,828 Posts
The metal rings are not after market they are the original movement holders and should have a spring running round the top of them.

The plastic rings are your dial spacers that go between your dial and movement.

Your crown/stems look as though they are missing the male section as well as the spring and washer.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,224 Posts
clockworks said:
They are new reproductions. I've fitted 2 so far. They fit the case perfectly, but may need sanding down very slightly on the inside edge to clear the bevelled edge of the crystal. Easy job that takes a couple of minutes with a small piece of medium wet-or-dry, and ensures a perfect fit.
The original rings seem to have been cast from some kind of "monkey metal", while these repros are machined.

First, I find it hard to believe "They fit the case perfectly" when they need alterations to actually fit over the crystal :) Secondly, the crystal retaining rings are indeed supposed to apply downward pressure on the crystal while at the same time holding tightly to the case. Did you try using a crystal press to install the retaining rings before altering them? Have you done appropriate pressure/vacuum tests on cases with these aftermarket retaining rings to ensure they are doing their job correctly? Not going after you on the subject, but I would be careful to recommend an unproven aftermarket part that may potentially need alterations to fit in place. Hence my questions.


Oh and lastly, I see evidence of machining on original rings, why do you think they "have been cast from some kind of 'monkey metal'"? I don't argue that it is possible they were rough-cast and then machined to dimensions, but why call them "monkey metal"? Those that are cracked and rusted in my experience have obviously been ill-treated/cared for over many years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
TheTigerUK said:
The metal rings are not after market they are the original movement holders and should have a spring running round the top of them.

The plastic rings are your dial spacers that go between your dial and movement.

Your crown/stems look as though they are missing the male section as well as the spring and washer.

Ah, just when I thought I might have been in luck! Slim chance I know, but is there anywhere to get hold of the spring needed? Or an alternative instead? Wonder if I can DIY one out of wire perhaps....!


I think with the crown the male stem section is actually in the crown head itself as there is the notched stem aspect inside which fits in the female section - my poor picture doesn't really make this very evident! A lazy option might just be to get the new complete stem as the missing washer might prove a little troublesome procuring..!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
rileynp said:
First, I find it hard to believe "They fit the case perfectly" when they need alterations to actually fit over the crystal :) Secondly, the crystal retaining rings are indeed supposed to apply downward pressure on the crystal while at the same time holding tightly to the case. Did you try using a crystal press to install the retaining rings before altering them? Have you done appropriate pressure/vacuum tests on cases with these aftermarket retaining rings to ensure they are doing their job correctly? Not going after you on the subject, but I would be careful to recommend an unproven aftermarket part that may potentially need alterations to fit in place. Hence my questions.


Oh and lastly, I see evidence of machining on original rings, why do you think they "have been cast from some kind of 'monkey metal'"? I don't argue that it is possible they were rough-cast and then machined to dimensions, but why call them "monkey metal"? Those that are cracked and rusted in my experience have obviously been ill-treated/cared for over many years.

Sorry, was so busy typing I missed your post... Interesting point - and I actually have one of those cracked rings (ooer missus!) you mention, I was half tempted to break out the loctite and just glue the join! Erm...


But in all seriousness, I had been looking at NOS or aftermarket as I wasn't entirely sure that once used and removed, an old one would retain enough tensile strength to withstand being reused, not just crack or split under the pressure of being pushed on again - guess the only way to tell is to try..
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
33,828 Posts
howie77 said:
Ah, just when I thought I might have been in luck! Slim chance I know, but is there anywhere to get hold of the spring needed? Or an alternative instead? Wonder if I can DIY one out of wire perhaps....!


I think with the crown the male stem section is actually in the crown head itself as there is the notched stem aspect inside which fits in the female section - my poor picture doesn't really make this very evident! A lazy option might just be to get the new complete stem as the missing washer might prove a little troublesome procuring..!
I know some guys have made new springs out of guitar wire if they cant get the original, i have been lucky and been able to use originals in mine which i prefer to do.

New OEM springs and washers are available still i believe, a new complete stem is another option if you can source any (if you do find a source for originals please give me a heads up, thanks)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
rileynp said:
First, I find it hard to believe "They fit the case perfectly" when they need alterations to actually fit over the crystal :) Secondly, the crystal retaining rings are indeed supposed to apply downward pressure on the crystal while at the same time holding tightly to the case. Did you try using a crystal press to install the retaining rings before altering them? Have you done appropriate pressure/vacuum tests on cases with these aftermarket retaining rings to ensure they are doing their job correctly? Not going after you on the subject, but I would be careful to recommend an unproven aftermarket part that may potentially need alterations to fit in place. Hence my questions.


Oh and lastly, I see evidence of machining on original rings, why do you think they "have been cast from some kind of 'monkey metal'"? I don't argue that it is possible they were rough-cast and then machined to dimensions, but why call them "monkey metal"? Those that are cracked and rusted in my experience have obviously been ill-treated/cared for over many years.

The repro rings are a good fit onto the bare case - they fit snugly, requiring a press to push into place, and the use of a thin blade to remove. To me, they fit as well as an original, undamaged, ring.


The "problems" arise once the crystal, gasket and lower ring are in place. The inner diameter, where the crystal passes through the ring, has been very slightly too small on both occasions that I have tried to fit one. Despite applying as much force as I could with a quality crystal press, the ring would not clip right down over the case. Removing a minute amount of metal from the lower inner edge of the crystal aperture allowed the ring to seat correctly. YMMV, depending on the compressibility of the gasket, the diameter and bevel of the crystal, and the condition of the case and lower gasket ring. My guess is that the part is deliberately made with the crystal aperture slightly undersize, so that it can be custom fitted, ensuring a snug fit.


As far as I've been able to discover, there is no other alternative part available. IIRC, I was directed towards this part by a post on this forum. This aftermarket part, despite any reservations, must be a better solution than refitting a cracked original ring. If there is a better solution - a stock of original parts, perhaps - I'd be pleased to hear about a source.


AFAIK, the crystal retaining ring is there purely to stop the crystal falling out in everyday use. At high pressures, surely the crystal would be forced tighter against the gasket. As long as the initial seal is good, as the pressure increases, the gasket will provide a better seal. Once at depth, you could probably remove the ring, without affecting the waterproofing.


Maybe it was a bit harsh of to say that the original rings were "cast from monkey metal", but the ring is definitely the weak point on an otherwise excellent watch, and the quality of the material that it's made from is inferior to the rest of the case. The fact that it fractures suggests that it is diecast and machined, rather than machined from solid. The 2 failed rings that I've seen, and several unbroken ones, had the appearance of plated diecast parts, and the failure edges had the crystalline appearance of broken mazak diecastings, as used for Dinky toys. I suppose that this could be the effect of corrosion on an old fracture.


Sorry to ramble on, but I can't think of a better solution to the problem of a cracked retaining ring than the use of these aftermarket parts. If there is a better solution, please tell us.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
33,828 Posts
Just out of interest i have just changed a cracked one for a friend and replaced with an original, never had anything to do with the after market ones.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
Was the replacement taken from a "scrap" watch, or did you manage to find an unused one?


Looking at the photos, there appear to be a multitude of small cracks on the inside. Suggests weakness and gradual failure from stress, rather than a one-time catastrophic failure on removal and refitting. Could it be the build-up of corrosion between the ring and the case forces the ring outwards, stressing it until it breaks?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
33,828 Posts
clockworks said:
Was the replacement taken from a "scrap" watch, or did you manage to find an unused one?


Looking at the photos, there appear to be a multitude of small cracks on the inside. Suggests weakness and gradual failure from stress, rather than a one-time catastrophic failure on removal and refitting. Could it be the build-up of corrosion between the ring and the case forces the ring outwards, stressing it until it breaks?
The replacement was from a spares watch i had.

I don't see any other cracks looking under a lupe.

I don't know how it split but there was water damage in the movement but that could also have been due to the fact the gaskets had never been changed, I think all the corrosion in the area of the crack could of happened after the crack as there was a considerable build up of rust, also under the bezel it was full of rust.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top