roskopf troubles

2248 Views 27 Replies 6 Participants Last post by riclit0, 2 mo ago

riclit0

Discussion Starter · Jul 27, 2020

Hi guys
!st timer here and mostly ignorant.
have an Newmark mk11, 13 lignes. pin pallet oldie(worn) Original balance replaced with closest match but watch losing 50-60 minutes per full day.
Reckon the balance is too heavy, Is that ok ? And so plan to skim balance rim approx. 4per cent of total weght to speed up.
Is this viable ? Would decreasing weight of balance speed up timekeeping to proper levels ?
Amplitude seems good, healthy tick and runs for 27-28 hours on full wind,cleaned and oiled.
riclit0

1 - 17 of 28 Posts

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 27, 2020

Hi nzwitchdoctor
Thanks for your reply. You are right.Forgot to say two pivot holes replaced and winding stem hole too.
Any ideas about the rest of my query ?
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jul 28, 2020

nzwatchdoctor said:
There maybe another model of that watch that looks the same and similar calibre number but a different balance and so different timekeeping result. That's where I'd be looking first before trying to take weight off the balance.

Hi Nzwitchdoctor
Many thanks for your thoughts.A good idea but finding the right balance on a similar watch might be a bit hit and miss and also rather pricey.She is an old girl with sentimental value only but would like to get a good result in the end.
So, skimming the balance wouldn't work you reckon ?
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 28, 2020

7s26b said:
A picture speaks a thousand words. Or a link, throw us a bone.

Hi 7s26b
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately only have basic ,pay as u go phone, so no picture possible.
Where do we go from here ? There seems to be a reluctance to answer the all important question ? Namely, is it ok to skim balance wheel to speed up train ?
very best to all riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jul 28, 2020

rileynp said:
There is good reason for reluctance, you approach us with an admitted lack of experience and knowledge that may make helping you very difficult.
That aside, can you not move the regulator over more (away from the stud), or re-pin the hairspring at the stud to be shorter?
Are you determining this loss of time via a timing machine, or only by watching the hands move? If the latter, a loose cannon pinion (tricky to adjust on Roskopf calibers) could make you think the watch rate is slow when actually the hands are not being driven all the time.

Thank you Rileynp
Excellent idea re hairspring shortening. Have tried moving regulator over, off the cock practically, even as far as it will physically go. Then she still loses 5 minutes per 24 hours.
. Am using dial washer under dial so hopefully no slippage involved there. No timing machine yet.
Will think about shortening effective length of hairspring via re-pin.
Cheers riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jul 28, 2020

rileynp said:
The dial washer will have no effect on the cannon pinion slippage. In most Roskopf designs, I think the wheel mounted on the barrel contains the actual clutch mechanism that engages when setting the hands, and if that isn’t right enough, you will show a loss of time even if your rate is normal. Tightening those is not as straightforward as a traditional cannon pinion. Do you feel moderate resistance through the crown when you set the hands?
Back to the hairspring, how is the gap between the regulator pins- can it be closed any?

Hello rileynp
Cheers for that. Yes,there is reasonable resistance when turning barrel clutch wheel and also while operating the hands,so seems ok. But the hairspring gap is quite large, the spring bounces visibly between the regulator pins 1.5mm or so. Definitely could take some closing down. Would that help ? And what is the best gap you recommend ?
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jul 29, 2020

rileynp said:
Read up! It would be best to understand the effect of the regulator pins in the hairspring at varying amplitude before you start adjusting them. Knowledge won’t prepare you for how delicate they are- they can be easily broken if you aren’t careful. I’d check your micrometer too, 1.5mm seems just about impossible for a regulator pin gap ;-)

Hello rileynp
the regulator pin seems to be in the shape of an U with one end attached and the other open and slightly shorter.Have stripped down movement again to check for these things.Have squeezed the pin closer together but with a smaller gap now. Also removed the mainspring and was surprised to find it not very springy .Laid out on bench freely, its diameter is about 45mm and is almost circular,this might be knackered I reckon .Maybe this is the cause all along ?
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jul 30, 2020

rileynp said:
A set mainspring (your’s sounds pretty close to it) will cause other problems, but not that large of a rate error spread. Going back to your original question, I think it is best to know the cause of a problem before solving it. In this case, if you have no reason to believe the hair spring and balance are not matched together, then you shouldn’t just go removing weight to solve the problem. I think I’ve exhausted my capability to help from here, it’s hard enough to fix a watch you can see!

Hello rileynp
Thank you so much for your ideas and good thinking ! It has been a pleasure chatting and I can see your difficulty re not having the watch in your hands.Am getting a new mainspring and will see what difference that makes. Guess I'll take it from there then.All the very best !
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jul 31, 2020

riclit0 said:
Hello rileynp
Thank you so much for your ideas and good thinking ! It has been a pleasure chatting and I can see your difficulty re not having the watch in your hands.Am getting a new mainspring and will see what difference that makes. Guess I'll take it from there then.All the very best !
riclit0

Hello NZwatchdoctor !
Just realised i have been referring to you as NZwitchdoctor in our chats. Humble apologies ! Eyes not as good as they should be, also brain !!
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jul 31, 2020

7s26b said:
😁😂

Glad you like it 7s26b ! There is hope yet!!
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #20 · Aug 1, 2020

zeke441 said:
Matching one 'as Close as I can get' may be the whole issue. These machines are pretty precise with no room for error. As Riley pointed out a shorter hairspring will run faster, but may cause other issues. With out the exact matching part it will be trial and error, and a bit of luck.

Thanks Zeke
Am rapidly coming to a similar conclusion. Awaiting new mainspring and will see what difference that makes before thinking of radical action.Will keep informed of progress.Best to all.
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #21 · Aug 11, 2020

Hi All
Back again you poor people
Just received new mainspring for my problem Roskopf watch. Will let you know how I get on soonest
riclit0

Reactions: 1

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #22 · Aug 30, 2020

riclit0 said:
Thanks Zeke
Am rapidly coming to a similar conclusion. Awaiting new mainspring and will see what difference that makes before thinking of radical action.Will keep informed of progress.Best to all.
riclit0

Hi Guys n Girls
Update time on Roskopf troubles. Managed to find new mainspring and popped it in barrel.
Assembled movement and a significant improvement in timekeeping achieved but still losing too much.
Decided to repin hairspring after pulling it through the stud about 1/4 inch or so and pop it back on the balance,so far so good.Placed balance in lower pivot and bridge in approx right position on plate when disaster struck......!
It fell off the movement as I attempted to move the bridge into the correct spot.Yes, the hairspring badly tangled up. Bummer! Tearing of hair and much gnashing of teeth ensued. BUT this time I would not give up!
Did some reading and youtubing on all things hairspringy and found several methods of supposedly untangling hairsprings. Ummm.....which one to try ?Never done it before but no real choice but to try. So I tried the method I liked the look of best, and do you know what ...it b....,y worked !!.Pop collet on suitable size broach and embed point of broach in cardboard upright,then pop much smaller broach through coils just before the tangled part and embed also. Gently twist the collet back and forwards if needed, moving tangle towards open end,whlle moving the smaller broach to the side and back again and voila! result! Important to keep both broaches embedded at all times .The spring had about four or five knots in it, so persevere my friends. All is not lost when hairsprings go bump in the night. Really buoyed up now and looking forward to full assembly and test. Will let you know how it goes.
Best to all Riclit0

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riclit0

Discussion Starter · #24 · Aug 30, 2020

bloody watches said:
Love it -

Cheers Bloody watches!! .Looks like you've been having a good laugh !! Love your emojis .
Just updated if you are interested.What are you working on now?
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #26 · Aug 30, 2020

bloody watches said:
I've got the NZwitchdoctor working on a couple of mine at the moment 😁

Yeh, great ! he seems like a good chap and certainly knows his way around watches. Helped me a lot too!
So good luck with your projects
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #27 · 3 mo ago

Hi All
A quick question re Roskopf watches. Would like to count wheel train to obtain correct beats per hour but not sure which wheels to count as pin lever watches don't usually have centre wheel ?
My thoughts are wheel teeth on barrel clutch wheel x third teeth ,x fourth teeth, x escape teeth x 2
divided by x third x fourth , x escape leaves ?
Using this math gives me 28x88x65x18x2 = 5765760 divided by 8x7x6 = 336 , answer 17160 bph
This any good ?
Anyone with an idea would be welcome! x
riclit0

riclit0

Discussion Starter · #28 · 2 mo ago

Hello Riclit0 old chap
Nice to see your still around and that everyone is falling over themselves to answer your very interesting question !
My answer is I honestly have no clue what you are wittering about old bean!
so have a good day and don't forget, we are all here to help!!
Toodle loo old chap....mmm talking of which I just gotta go.....
riclit0

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