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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello Everyone

OK - I know this has been asked so many times before, and I've read many of the articles on the subject.

I'm not a cheapskate and don't like to cut corners (Already spent over $700 on tools / restoration products )
God knows if I'll be able to recover it !

But the drive to be fully prepared and ready to go could not be tamed.

Just need to purchase the Oils & lubricants.

When you have money coming in then the jobs will cover the cost of 'Moebius' products.

For now I cannot justify spending $30 on 2 ml of 'Synt-A-Lube 9010' when potentially
I only use two drops out of the bottle.

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The Seiko Automatic movements I plan to strip-down and re-build are:

7S26A (Seiko 5 Auto) and 4006A (Seiko Bell-Matic)

The Technical manual calls for:

A03 = Moebius 9010 = HP1300
Seiko S4
Seiko S6

SUMMARY OF MY RESEARCH

17311
Novostar Barrel Grease (30ml)

Mainspring & Slipping Springs
Barrels

17310
Novostar Winding Mechanism Grease (30ml)
Auto winding Mechanisms, Hour & Calendar Settings

17313
Novostar Type B (6ml)

Pallet Stones & Pins
Escape Wheels
Balance Staffs
Centre Wheels
Barrel Arbor

I think the following three products should meet my initial needs.
The Novostar selection is made by 'AF Switzerland' - (See Page 252 of their catalogue).

These cost about 35% less than Moebius - so that's quite significant.

Any Comments ?
 

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This is really like saying who makes the best synthetic motor oil. There is no right answer. If your budget will only support the Novostar oils and greases and they are approved for use on watches, I see no issues with your decision. That said, I would look to the major watch tool and product suppliers here in the US (Otto Frei, Esslinger) and abroad (Cousins) for what they stock and sell for purposes of servicing wrist watches. I have not really used anything other than Moebius oils and greases in my watch work. Yes, they are expensive but a small amount of oil will go a long way and if you are replacing oil in your cups weekly or monthly, you will go through it. For my watch work I use the following:
Moebius:
9010 - Synthetic train wheel pivots, automatic winding works
9103 - Synthetic calendar works and automatic winding works
9104 - Synthetic barrel arbor, keyless works, cannon pinion
8141 - Natural oil mainsprings
8217- Natural breaking grease for MS barrel
9501 Synthetic grease for keyless works
9504 Synthetic grease (similar to 9501. One or the other is fine). Column Wheel (Chronograph)
Molykote DX grease - general purpose grease (Was widely used at one time in servicing Rolex, Omega, and other major watch brands but is now frowned upon primarily because it contaminates watch cleaning fluids used in the cleaning machines.)
D5 - Natural Microgliss (Multiple uses from mainsprings, to metal to metal friction areas in keyless works, cannon pinions)
9415 - Synthetic grease for pallet stones

I personally think synthetics are better and longer lasting than natural oils. If you were looking for the bare minimum to get started, I think you could get by with 9010, D5, and 8217. If you use too thick or to viscous an oil on the train wheels I.e. 9104 it may impact and lower your amplitude numbers. I am sure others may have their own recommendations.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
This is really like saying who makes the best synthetic motor oil. There is no right answer. If your budget will only support the Novostar oils and greases and they are approved for use on watches, I see no issues with your decision. That said, I would look to the major watch tool and product suppliers here in the US (Otto Frei, Esslinger) and abroad (Cousins) for what they stock and sell for purposes of servicing wrist watches. I have not really used anything other than Moebius oils and greases in my watch work. Yes, they are expensive but a small amount of oil will go a long way and if you are replacing oil in your cups weekly or monthly, you will go through it. For my watch work I use the following:
Moebius:
9010 - Synthetic train wheel pivots, automatic winding works
9103 - Synthetic calendar works and automatic winding works
9104 - Synthetic barrel arbor, keyless works, cannon pinion
8141 - Natural oil mainsprings
8217- Natural breaking grease for MS barrel
9501 Synthetic grease for keyless works
9504 Synthetic grease (similar to 9501. One or the other is fine). Column Wheel (Chronograph)
Molykote DX grease - general purpose grease (Was widely used at one time in servicing Rolex, Omega, and other major watch brands but is now frowned upon primarily because it contaminates watch cleaning fluids used in the cleaning machines.)
D5 - Natural Microgliss (Multiple uses from mainsprings, to metal to metal friction areas in keyless works, cannon pinions)
9415 - Synthetic grease for pallet stones

I personally think synthetics are better and longer lasting than natural oils. If you were looking for the bare minimum to get started, I think you could get by with 9010, D5, and 8217. If you use too thick or to viscous an oil on the train wheels I.e. 9104 it may impact and lower your amplitude numbers. I am sure others may have their own recommendations.
Hello John

Thank you for your detailed reply - It's very much appreciated.
You know the question only arises for someone starting out in the field like myself.

If you have jobs coming in then, as mentioned previously you would just buy the best and not think twice.

Your analogy with the motor oils is pretty much on the ball !
But everything is relative.

If you have a Rolex or an $1000 + watch then it would be sacrilege to use anything but the best.
For the sub $500 watches you should probably still use Moebius.
Sub $200 watches maybe the alternatives are justifiable - Maybe ?

I use Cousins for all my supplies and they stock 'Novostar' as well as 'Moebius ' and 'Molykote DX paste'.

Your suggestion to start with is column 4:
Reference
Use Location
Moebius
Suggested Minimum - Moebius
1Synthetic train wheel pivots
Automatic winding works
9010
2Synthetic calendar works
Automatic winding works
91039010 OR 8217 ?
3Synthetic barrel arbor
Keyless works
Cannon pinion
91049010 OR 8217 ?
Natural oil mainsprings81419010 OR 8217 ?
4Natural breaking grease for MS barrel8217
5Synthetic grease for keyless works95019010 OR 8217 ?
6Synthetic grease Column Wheel (Chronograph)9504 / 95019010 OR 8217 ?
7Natural Microgliss (Multiple uses from mainsprings, to metal to metal friction areas in keyless works, cannon pinions)D5
8Synthetic grease for pallet stones94159010 OR 8217 ?

PLEASE CONFIRM WHICH OPTION TO USE WHERE IF THE SELECTION IS LIMITED TO 9010 / D5 and 8217
In your opinion, do you think there's any use location for use of 'Novostar' without detriment?

Many Thanks :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
OK based on the work I plan to do, I've decided to purchase the following:

AO-3 = Moebius A = Synt-A-Lube = 9010
SEIKO S-4 = Moebius 8301 (as suggested by Cousins)
SEIKO S-6

** This covers all the points requiring lubrication as shown in the 7S26A and 4006A technical manual **

I think this will be a good starting point.

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Craftsman
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Moebius 8217 is a breaking grease I use for MS barrel walls only in automatic watches. It is not a substitute for 9010 or D5, but more stand alone for MS barrel service only as a breaking grease.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Moebius 8217 is a breaking grease I use for MS barrel walls only in automatic watches. It is not a substitute for 9010 or D5, but more stand alone for MS barrel service only as a breaking grease.
I'm going for Moebius 9010 / Seiko S-4 and Seiko S-6.
This is in accordance to Seiko guidelines for their movements.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Moebius 8217 is a breaking grease I use for MS barrel walls only in automatic watches. It is not a substitute for 9010 or D5, but more stand alone for MS barrel service only as a breaking grease.
Can either Seiko S-4 or S-6 be used as a breaking grease for the barrel walls, or am I looking at 'Moebius 8217' or dare I say it 'Novostar Barrel Grease - 17311'
Seiko does not show the main spring being taken out of the barrel and cleaned (why I have no idea?) - but I shall do this.
 

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Seiko usually recommends to replace the barrel complete at service. Sound advice but they quit making new parts decades ago for some older calibers. So we do the best we can to service what we have. If you do find a new part for say a 6309, it is probably 30 years old and the grease is all dried up.

Some of the technical guides for some calibers say S-2 or S-3 for barrel walls. Most tech guides say nothing but replace barrel complete. It took me years to find S-2 and S-3 and I have not had a chance to use either yet. One of them, S-3 I think, looks a lot like Kluber. Neither look anything like Moebius 8217. Talking about color and consistency.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Seiko usually recommends to replace the barrel complete at service. Sound advice but they quit making new parts decades ago for some older calibers. So we do the best we can to service what we have. If you do find a new part for say a 6309, it is probably 30 years old and the grease is all dried up.

Some of the technical guides for some calibers say S-2 or S-3 for barrel walls. Most tech guides say nothing but replace barrel complete. It took me years to find S-2 and S-3 and I have not had a chance to use either yet. One of them, S-3 I think, looks a lot like Kluber. Neither look anything like Moebius 8217. Talking about color and consistency.
Thank you for your input on this post. (y)

I'm planning to work firstly on the Seiko 5 Automatic - 7S26A followed by the Seiko Bell-Matic 4006A movements.
The technical manuals are linked (if you click on them)
You're 100% correct in what you've said - Seiko do not suggest servicing the barrel and spring but just to replace them.
I've read other posts on the subject and most people have difficulty obtaining the Seiko lubricants.
Thankfully here in the UK we have a wholesaler from whom they're all available.

I was planning to purchase:
  • 'Moebius 9010'
  • 'Seiko S-4'
  • 'Seiko S-6'
I've not found a cross-reference to S-2 or S-3 to either of these two movements but as you say it may well have been recommended elsewhere.
Shame you have both S-2 and S-3 but not used them.

So I'm guessing S-4 or S-6 would not be any good for the barrel walls?

I suggested:

- 'Novostar Barrel Grease' (17311) - 35% cheaper than 'Moebius 8217'

Some people oil the mainspring and others don't.
Any thoughts on this?

I guess ideally 'Moebius 8141' but would 'Moebius 9010' do the trick?

It's a little about cost-saving this whole post.

Look forward to your reply...
 

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The buy in on these oils is pretty steep. There really is no substitute for the correct oils. 9010, HP1300, 8217, 9504 and maybe 9415 will cover everything Seiko. Buy once, cry once. It is a lot of work to go back and correct things.

The S-2 is for my 6309. In the S-2 package is an insert for how to use it. It specifies where to apply and how much. There is no mention of any other oil inside the barrel. Also it describes how to test the slipping point. Oiling the spring is how the Swiss do it. You are working on a Japanese movement. I tried non specific barrel grease and it slipped too early. That is why I went to the trouble and expense of getting S-2 and S-3.

I'm a youtube/internet trained watch tinkerer. I don't do it for a living. I have fun but have only sucessfully rebuilt about 6-7 movements of the 10 I tried. My success rate is improving.
 

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I hesitate to contribute to threads like this with my very limited servicing experience but this is what was recommended to me when I was asking the same sorts of questions. In my case I mainly service older calibres such as 6309 and 7002. The latter I would imagine is similar to the 7S26 (just about to do one myself).

Moebius Synt-a-lube 9010

Moebius Synt-HP 1300 9104

Moebius 8201 with molybdenum disulfide for the barrel wall

I then subsequently added Moebius 9415 grease for the pallet stones. I was using 9010 previously.

I don't see 8201 mentioned much but whilst it does tend to separate in the bottle needing some good mixing, I seem to get very good results in terms of operation and power reserve

I do oil the mainspring with just the smallest hint of 9010 on a watch paper after cleaning and degreasing. Then run a dry watch paper over it gently so it's just a hint of a coating.

I am aware that I could do with something 'stickier' for some of the keyless works (my 6309 guide states Moebius V whatever that is) but these are all my own watches and are not for sale so the risk is mine.

I think everyone with experience has personal choices and ask 5 watchmakers the oils they use and you'll get 5 different answers - none of which are wrong. So for the rest of us it's just a case of making a choice from the information presented and running with it. I'm happy with the results of what I use.

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The buy in on these oils is pretty steep. There really is no substitute for the correct oils. 9010, HP1300, 8217, 9504 and maybe 9415 will cover everything Seiko. Buy once, cry once. It is a lot of work to go back and correct things.

The S-2 is for my 6309. In the S-2 package is an insert for how to use it. It specifies where to apply and how much. There is no mention of any other oil inside the barrel. Also it describes how to test the slipping point. Oiling the spring is how the Swiss do it. You are working on a Japanese movement. I tried non specific barrel grease and it slipped too early. That is why I went to the trouble and expense of getting S-2 and S-3.

I'm a youtube/internet trained watch tinkerer. I don't do it for a living. I have fun but have only successfully rebuilt about 6-7 movements of the 10 I tried. My success rate is improving.
Thanks for your reply.
Your success rate is not that bad.
You'll have to tell us about the failures so we can learn from your experience. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I hesitate to contribute to threads like this with my very limited servicing experience but this is what was recommended to me when I was asking the same sorts of questions. In my case I mainly service older calibres such as 6309 and 7002. The latter I would imagine is similar to the 7S26 (just about to do one myself).

Moebius Synt-a-lube 9010

Moebius Synt-HP 1300 9104

Moebius 8201 with molybdenum disulphide for the barrel wall

I then subsequently added Moebius 9415 grease for the pallet stones. I was using 9010 previously.

I don't see 8201 mentioned much but whilst it does tend to separate in the bottle needing some good mixing, I seem to get very good results in terms of operation and power reserve

I do oil the mainspring with just the smallest hint of 9010 on a watch paper after cleaning and degreasing. Then run a dry watch paper over it gently so it's just a hint of a coating.

I am aware that I could do with something 'stickier' for some of the keyless works (my 6309 guide states Moebius V whatever that is) but these are all my own watches and are not for sale so the risk is mine.

I think everyone with experience has personal choices and ask 5 watchmakers the oils they use and you'll get 5 different answers - none of which are wrong. So for the rest of us it's just a case of making a choice from the information presented and running with it. I'm happy with the results of what I use.

Good luck
Thanks for your reply.
Your avatar shows Penge - I used to live in Forest Hill (25+ years ago) ! - Small world.

You're being very humble by stating you have limited experience, in which case I have no experience at all.
I'm in fact starting out and somewhat shocked at having spent over £500 on tools and compounds preparing myself to get into working on my first watches.

Got drawn into it and then it went past the point of no return !

I'm just at the final point of firming up on oils and lubricants so I can order them.

Have read so much on the topic, but get lost.

One person highly respected in the field is 'Mark Lovick'

His suggestion is the following:

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Everyone has a different suggestion.

OPTION A
  • 'Moebius 9010'
  • 'Moebius D5'
  • 'Moebius 8217'
  • 'Seiko TSF-451 Silicone Grease'
OPTION B
  • 'Moebius 9010'
  • 'Seiko S-4'
  • 'Seiko S-6'
  • 'Seiko TSF-451 Silicone Grease'
As stated in the Seiko Technical Manual

The barrel, & main spring does not get a service according to Seiko, but in order to do that, I need to add:
  • 'Moebius 8217' for barrel walls although S-4 is loaded with graphite + Molybdenum disulphide so should work?
'Moebius 9010' can be used for the exit jewel on the pallet fork to start with though ideally this should be 'Moebius 9415'
Also to wipe the main spring with lint-free tissue + a drop of 'Moebius 9010' as you've stated.

Take a look at the Seiko Technical manual for the two movements I plan to work on - 7S26A / 4006A
where 9010 / S-4 / S-6 are mentioned ....

Choice of Option A or Option B - that's where I stand at the moment....
 

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I understood that D5 is quite an old tech oil now.

The HP1300 is a substitute for S4 I think.

I would go with a recommended slippage grease for the barrel wall as if this isn't correct then I imagine you'll either have binding in the automatic winding if it's not slipping or a very low power reserve if it slips too early on winding.

I think you'll be fine with either of your options. I don't think what you use is particularly movement specific at this stage. And if you're like me when you start and constantly pulling wheels and bridges to try and improve rate, amplitude and variation (mine are old and tired movements!) then the actual oil is probably less important than learning what elements make a difference and how.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I understood that D5 is quite an old tech oil now.

The HP1300 is a substitute for S4 I think.

I would go with a recommended slippage grease for the barrel wall as if this isn't correct then I imagine you'll either have binding in the automatic winding if it's not slipping or a very low power reserve if it slips too early on winding.

I think you'll be fine with either of your options. I don't think what you use is particularly movement specific at this stage. And if you're like me when you start and constantly pulling wheels and bridges to try and improve rate, amplitude and variation (mine are old and tired movements!) then the actual oil is probably less important than learning what elements make a difference and how.
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Barrel wall grease has a dual personality. It grips until it doesn't then it slips until it grips again. The purpose is to put on the brakes so the spring winds up but doesn't break. Brake and break, two different words that sound the same. Been out of school too long to remember what that is called. A less correct grease should protect the parts but not perform to specifications. A lot can go wrong taking out and putting in a mainspring. You really only want to do it once.

Every oil topic I have ever read is a lightning rod for opinions. The easiest and most correct approach is to use exactly what the tech guide says. Sometimes the product is no longer available so you have to decide what the most suitable substitute is. Sometimes people use an oil or grease because that is what they know or have. Thin oil for fast moving or low drag, thicker oil for slow moving, grease for high pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Came across this on another forum on Seiko Lubricants.
Seiko S-4 is more expensive than 'Moebius 8301 - with graphite'

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Thanks for your reply.
Your success rate is not that bad.
You'll have to tell us about the failures so we can learn from your experience. (y)
My failures are mostly from starting with a junk non working movement and seeing if I can get it working. Pretty good success when starting with a working movement that just needs a service and has no issues.
 

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I have seen Spencer Klein load mainsprings into barrels on his vids using old Seiko S2 lubricant. I could be wrong but I did not see him lubricate the spring (maybe he did this off camera) but he did dab a bit of S2 on the top and bottom surfaces of the barrel and also used the S2 as a braking grease in a few spots on the barrel wall. My issue with S2 is that we see all these vintage Seiko's where the S2 has leached out at the arbor and turns into a cutting slurry on unjeweled main plates where the arbor rides resulting in ovaling out of the port. Why on earth would we want to keep using S2. Just my opinion but it was good enough for Seiko back in the day so guess it is okay now. Just like anything old, there is newer and better lubricants out there.

A comment above about D5 being outdated. True but it is still a widely used and accepted multipurpose lubricant and should serve well for a number of purposes at a lower cost than synthetics. My substitute for D5 would be Moebius 9104. If the member were closer, I would just give him my D5. I have a whole bottle of it and do not use it any longer but did when I first started repairing watches a couple of years ago.
 
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Discussion Starter #20
I have seen Spencer Klein load mainsprings into barrels on his vids using old Seiko S2 lubricant. I could be wrong but I did not see him lubricate the spring (maybe he did this off camera) but he did dab a bit of S2 on the top and bottom surfaces of the barrel and also used the S2 as a braking grease in a few spots on the barrel wall. My issue with S2 is that we see all these vintage Seiko's where the S2 has leached out at the arbor and turns into a cutting slurry on unjeweled main plates where the arbor rides resulting in ovaling out of the port. Why on earth would we want to keep using S2. Just my opinion but it was good enough for Seiko back in the day so guess it is okay now. Just like anything old, there is newer and better lubricants out there.

A comment above about D5 being outdated. True but it is still a widely used and accepted multipurpose lubricant and should serve well for a number of purposes at a lower cost than synthetics. My substitute for D5 would be Moebius 9104. If the member were closer, I would just give him my D5. I have a whole bottle of it and do not use it any longer but did when I first started repairing watches a couple of years ago.
Thank you for what you said about D5.
This forum is great because we all share the same interest and it's nice to get feedback on topics from people like yourself John with years of experience behind you.
Perhaps Seiko have changed the formulation of S-2 since the early days - or maybe they haven't. Who Knows .
If it leaks out of the arbor then that's not acceptable.
Yes - we must move with the times and use better products if they're out there. :cool:(y)
 
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