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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Since buying a 6138-0300 from Enicar.racine here on SCWF, ive been wanting a gold faced 6139-6040, so when this non operational one came up in a lot on ebay, i couldn't resist. Ive rebuilt automotive engines, compressors, differentials, how hard could this be, right?

Ive ordered a few tools off ebay that im still waiting for: a movement holder, tweezers, screwdrivers, hand pullers, an oiler, a magnifier lamp, among a few other items. As well ive read through the 6309 project here on the forum and watched the 6139 disassembly video on Youtube a few times to get an idea of what im tackling. I just had a few questions, and please excuse me if im using the wrong terminology.



First off, the watch is not functional, ive removed the stem with some difficulty (appears the crown is bent), and upon inspection, none of the gears will freely move, even with some coaxing from a screwdriver. Looking it over i can see one gear that looks to be off its axis, could this be the culprit? Its directly below the rotor, off center to the left.



Second, theres a good amount of black shmuck on the chapter ring of the dial. Just using a toothpick, i was able to scrape some of it off. Would using a Dremel, at low speed and with a pointed felt buff, be an advisable way to go about cleaning this stuff off? Is there anything that can be used to clean the dial, such as 99.9% alcohol?



In addition, i noticed the plastic ring around the dial (not the case ring) is cracked, is this normal or should it be replaced as well? This, the crown and stem, and the crystal: is there a source for all these parts?

Finally, I do want to completely disassemble the watch and oil it. When it comes to the hairspring, ive seen people reference a 'one-dip' solution. Though seeing that this is just me tinkering, would this solution on ebay be applicable?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Bottle-...303?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4842681b4f

I would want to avoid removing the hairspring form the balance wheel and bridge (hope thats the right term). From what ive seen in the youtube video, they remove as one piece, could i dip the whole assembly in the cleaner or would this damage something?

Thank you all for your help, ive really been enjoying reading through the forum.
 

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A fantastic project. Wish you every success with this.
Firstly check out Pollys 6139 guide and make sure you have the 6138 tech notes too - though I think the 6139 gives more detail.
You can follow the 6139 notes and guides to a point. Of course the 6138 is different, especially under the dial - and a whole lot more complicated.

The wheel that is off looks like the intermediate minute wheel for the sub register. So in theory that would only stop the movement if the chronograph were running. I expect though you have tried pressing all the buttons etc to no effect.
I think that wheel is off axis because the top plate is not seated correctly - the right hand edge in the picture looks too high up. Even the slightest pitch on the this plate will stop the movement as it holds the jewel for the centre chronograph.
So first step is take off the rotor, then take of this plate then see how things look. Can you assembly back better and does that make the chappy work? Either way strip it all down and have fun.... but do expect to loose and break bits. Don't be disappointed, and don't give up!

er... I should be working....
T
 

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Loving the have a go attitude - I wish you well. There's excellent documentation for the 6139 so you have a good chance of success.

The basic idea is to strip the movement into all it's parts, clean everything, inspect for wear or damage, then re-assemble and lubricate.

When disassembling, take a photo of each part before you remove it. Keep everything separate and in order - the screws are all slightly different but almost impossible to tell apart!

You can just use naphtha (lighter fluid) to soak and clean the parts, but a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner first will give better results. You can clean the balance in the ultrasonic and naphtha, but I like to bolt it back onto the mainplate before cleaning (after everything else has been removed). You'll need to clean the diashocks and probably the mainspring, these are a bit more complicated and need some reading up before proceeding.

Check every part for wear or damage or stubborn dirt using x10 magnification. Any problems here are a bridge to be crossed when you come to it...

Reassembly takes time and patience and a good understanding of how the movement works is very useful. Check each part for correct fitment and function as far as possible as you go along.

The dial ring shouldn't be cracked, so I'd replace it. There's no single go-to source for spare parts, but most bits can be tracked down without too much difficulty, though genuine dials and hands in good condition are very hard to find.
 

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Hi caligula,

I think that if you have the aptitude and read up on all the information available you should be able to strip down, clean and reassemble the 6139. The only point to make is that if you have no tinkering experience and have not developed the technique of handling parts/tools and establishing a methodology this will be a disadvantage to you.

My amateurs guide will show you the general reassembly process plus what to look for to trouble shoot. Also as I state many times the Seiko technical guides and addendum for the 6139A have some useful troubleshooting information and set up tips.

The 6139 is simple compared with an engine and only looks daunting when you are unfamiliar with it. If you digest the information and understand how it all works you will be in good stead for a successful rebuild/service.

The youtube video is pretty good and shows you the process better than a printed page, it was this video that gave me the confidence to try myself.

Tom has the diagnosis correct regarding the intermediate minute recording wheel being out of its bearing and the chronograph bridge being seated incorrectly.

The dial looks to be in very nice condition, the lacquer is a very delicate medium and I advise to avoid cleaning it or getting alcohol (or dremel) any where near it. Trust me it will end in tears and you will kick yourself when the lacquer becomes damaged. The surface dirt on the minute track can be cleaned carefully as you describe or using a soft cloth (lens cleaning cloths) and a little spit but once again be very careful and apply a delicate touch. Dials can be marked by only the gentlest rubbing. Rodico is good for lifting dirt and fingerprints but if the lacquer is old it can lift as well as the dirt.

Cleaning the mainspring I find easy but be prepared for it to fly across the room if you are not prepared. The hairspring is something I avoid unless visibly dirty but the Diashocks are worth doing if you can handle the fiddly size of the components as they can effect the movements performance dramatically. You could leave the diashocks and mainspring for the time being and you may well find the movement runs fine.

For spare parts I always try Seikochrono/Stefan first followed by Cousins, Swedefreak/J. Koch and then a general trawl of ebay for donor watches.

Hope you will keep us posted on your progress....and good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thanks for the info. Youll be glad to know i held off on running the dial through the dish washer. I ended up removing it and giving it some dabs with Rodico, i didnt get most of the dark stuff off, but it did at least 'lighten it' without causing any damage to the markings. :)

In any case i have some good news and bad news. The good is that I disassembled the watch all the way down short of removing the hairspring assembly and the bridge that holds the escapement down. You were right, the screw on the upper 'bridge' had backed itself out and allowed the two minute recording wheels to pop out of place. I reassembled the parts and with some help from manually winding the mainspring, it started right up. Seems it occasionally would stop and start again, i expect from a need for a proper cleaning and lube.



I also completely stripped the case for cleaning as well, and was planning to polish the crystal as per the article here.

The bad news: i dropped the crystal and it shattered on the floor. :(

So i have the following questions:

1. Where can i get a OEM crystal for this watch for less then $30-40 that im finding on eBay? Are there any other 6139's, such as the 60xx Pepsis, that are compatible?

2. Im in need of oil. I saw some Moebius 8000 oil for a reasonable price on eBay, do i really need anything else like the 9010 i see most people here using? Are there any other oils i need for like the mainspring? Im trying not to spend $30 on 2ml of liquid.

3. Cleaning: can i use naphtha instead of a one-dip on EVERYTHING mechanical in the watch? Is there anything i shouldn't use it on?


Here's my little setup. Im curious, has anyone else here had their girlfriends yelling at them for spending more money on watch tools then they spent on the watch theyre fixing?

 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
One thing i just noticed though, not sure if its an issue. The intermediate minute recording wheel that was out of place, as well as the minute recording wheel, i can move freely with the tip of my screwdriver as if they are not attached to anything. Issue? Im not seeing these move at all on their own.

 

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Glad you hung fire shotblasting the dial, a slightly grubby one is better than a damaged one. Often the grubbiness is due to the lacquer having aged and this will not come out.

If the watch stalls when the chronograph is running the problem lies with the chronograph section of the movement. If it stops when the chronograph is not running you probably do need a service, which is just a strip down, clean and lube. You will need to check for cleanliness and wear.

If a service does not do it a couple of things I found will stall the movement with the chronograph stopped is the operating arm adjustment that can result in the clutch being lifted unevenly and causing occasional drag of the clutch. And also the clutch plate on the chronograph center wheel can get out of square, this can be pushed back with a pair of tweezers etc or sometimes just cycling the stop/start function will do the trick.

The intermediate recording and minute recording wheels should be loose as you describe with no discernable friction. They are advanced one a minute by the finger on the chronograph center wheel.

I do not think you will find an OEM crystal and the reproductions all seem to be in the $30-40 price range.

I must admit I only use general purpose oil, it is something I have been meaning to upgrade. For the mainspring not much lube is required at all, cleanliness being the key factor. I only apply the lightest touch of moly grease to the edges of the mainspring/barrel wall. Some run folks prefer to run theirs completely dry.

I use naptha/lighter fuel for cleaning on all movement components, it has not caused any problems so far. Naptha will not shift stubborn dirt or leave the parts shiney, you will require a proper cleaning solution for that but it will dissolve the light dirt and old oil and does not leave a residue.

Good lighting is essential, if you can get on with a magnifying lamp go with that, I find it gets in the way and use loupes and strong reading glasses. I did consider one of those optivisors but good ones with decent magnification are too expensive for me. Otherwise your setup looks similar to mine.
 

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You might find investing in a scratch brush very helpful whilst cleaning your parts. They are very cheap and I honestly don't know what I did before I bought one.
 

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Moebius 8000 is ok as a general oil but it will thicken much quicker than synthetics so will need servicing more frequently in future if you use it. It's also worth getting a medium clock oil for heavier areas like mainspring, centre wheel, keyless work and canon pinion. Ideally they should all have their own "correct" lubricants but, as long as you remember to re-service every 3 or 4 years, that combination will work out fine.

Incidentally, it may sound counter-intuitive, but the trick with traditional oils is to use less of them - especially around the pallets (don't oil the pallet pivots at all!) and balance. If you use more they'll thicken up and turn like glue in there!

For cleaning, Naptha is fine but, as previously mentioned, it won't shift really "baked on" stuff just by soaking. If you can find some over there then get some tetrachloroethylene (dry cleaning fluid). It's what the "official" Bergeon One Dip is made of and will be even cheaper than the stuff that guy on EBay is bottling up. The bottle he's using is hopeless btw - you need something with a wide neck sto you can drop parts in and retrieve them ;)
 

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Moebius 8000 is ok as a general oil but it will thicken much quicker than synthetics so will need servicing more frequently in future if you use it. It's also worth getting a medium clock oil for heavier areas like mainspring, centre wheel, keyless work and canon pinion. Ideally they should all have their own "correct" lubricants but, as long as you remember to re-service every 3 or 4 years, that combination will work out fine.

Incidentally, it may sound counter-intuitive, but the trick with traditional oils is to use less of them - especially around the pallets (don't oil the pallet pivots at all!) and balance. If you use more they'll thicken up and turn like glue in there!

For cleaning, Naptha is fine but, as previously mentioned, it won't shift really "baked on" stuff just by soaking. If you can find some over there then get some tetrachloroethylene (dry cleaning fluid). It's what the "official" Bergeon One Dip is made of and will be even cheaper than the stuff that guy on EBay is bottling up. The bottle he's using is hopeless btw - you need something with a wide neck sto you can drop parts in and retrieve them ;)
I second the dry cleaning fluid. It is spectacular at cleaning and rarely a day goes by that I'm not dipping some part or other in it.
 

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Guardsman is a naptha (petrol) based fluid, which will work but not much better than plain old lighter fluid.

The stuff you really want to track down is tetrachloroethylene (CAS No.: 127-18-4). It's more effective and non-flammable.

Not sure it it's still available as dry cleaning fluid over your side of the pond but, if not, any decent chemist (druggist???) should be able to get some - they may want to know what it's for but you have a good reason seeing as it's a standard solvent for watch work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've found 99.9% tetrachloroethylene for sale on eBay and Amazon, though for about $50 for a pint. At that rate I may be better off buying real one dip, or at least the version of it the guy on eBay is selling. Do any of you have links to a site that would sell it at a reasonable price?
 

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I don't know anywhere out there I'm afraid. On EBay UK you can get it for about £18 ($30 or so) for a litre but that won't help you much seeing as international freight of chemicals tends to be expensive :( There are places online in the US which are offering it for about that, but only in 4 or 5 litre batches for industrial use, which would last you several lifetimes! That's probably what the guy on EBay is buying in to split into smaller lots.

Unusual for stuff to be cheaper over here than in the States.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well I went ahead and ordered 500ml of the pure tetrachloroethylene off eBay. I suppose if anyone else here needs some i can sell a few ounces of it.

I have someone with a replacement crystal and stem/crown for a 6139-60xx. Would these work with a 6040?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Ok, think i found a problem. The intermediate minute wheel seems to not be functioning as it should. As the chronograph finger comes around to turn the wheel, i noticed all it is doing is lifting up and tilting the wheel instead of turning it.

You can see it happening in this video. It takes place at 0:05 of this 8 second video.

http://youtu.be/uFIDqNIitqY

It appears that the wheel is allowed to tilt instead of turn by the loose fitting of its spindle in the chronograph bridge, shown with an arrow below. Is this correct, it almost looks like there should be a bearing here or something.



Any suggestions?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Bump for any suggestions.

Also ive read you need to properly support the center jewel when pressing the hands back on. I assume this would be without the rotor installed, in the same state as in the picture above? Would placing it on a flat surface suffice, or do you really need the special holding jig?
 

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Ok, think i found a problem. The intermediate minute wheel seems to not be functioning as it should. As the chronograph finger comes around to turn the wheel, i noticed all it is doing is lifting up and tilting the wheel instead of turning it.

You can see it happening in this video. It takes place at 0:05 of this 8 second video.

http://youtu.be/uFIDqNIitqY

It appears that the wheel is allowed to tilt instead of turn by the loose fitting of its spindle in the chronograph bridge, shown with an arrow below. Is this correct, it almost looks like there should be a bearing here or something.



Any suggestions?
Yep, there is a jewel missing from that hole. You'll need to find someone willing to send you a new one or a complete new bridge. I'd do it but I'm sure there is someone over there that can help.
Maybe check the pivots on that intermediate wheel are ok too-just in case you need that too.
Kind regards,
Tom
 

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Bump for any suggestions.

Also ive read you need to properly support the center jewel when pressing the hands back on. I assume this would be without the rotor installed, in the same state as in the picture above? Would placing it on a flat surface suffice, or do you really need the special holding jig?
Ideally, you should support the jewel, that would be best. But don't get hung up on it, it is completely possible to do without. The very worst case is that you'll push the jewel out a little, (it's unlikely to fall out completely but worth being sure that if it does you don't loose it). The jewel can be pushed back again after you have put the sweep hand back on- take the bridge off again to do it. A staking set would be the proper tool-but you'll easily find a small flat surface that you can use to push it back in.

Setting the height of the jewel is important-it really can completely change how the chrono works.

Regards,
Tom
 
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