[ewand]

It's Ok, I know the dial is true and aware the watch is a bitzer, hadn't realised the day wheel issue though in that Spanish didn't apply to these. Pollyc probably remembers detail this one.

To be clear: the Spanish day wheel thing is my theory (that all Silvers originall had Chinese or Roman), which I'm testing by asking people to come forward with watches that disprove it... Thanks for participating in the test

 

[bigbluekyle]

Thanks for the photos of the Silver Pogues with the Diamond Link Bracelets (Personally I really like the look) but as you stated the straight ends are not a great fit. Excellent detective work on the Chinese Day Wheel - that would certainly add more evidence to the Silver Pogues (especially the Proofs) being only originally sold in China (Hong Kong). As these watches are Hard to Find and cloaked in mystery finding evidence or catalog/advertising photos is proving very difficult.

As long as we are only proposing theories here is one that I believe is a real possiblity:

This is what I know:

The Silver Proofs were sold in Hong Kong by Thong Sia in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Thong Sia was a very large watch dealer and Seiko's only Authorized Dealer in Hong Kong. Thong Sia was owned by Wong Chue Meng. Wong Chue Meng also founded Stelux in 1963. Stelux was also located in Hong Kong and manufactured both the Seiko President and Chiclet Bracelets. Wong Chue Meng owned both Thong Sia (the retailer of Seiko Watches in Hong Kong) and Stelux (the manufacturer of bracelets for Seiko in Hong Kong).

This is my theory:

I believe it is possible Thong Sia ordered the Silver Proof 6139 watches from Seiko with Chinese Day Wheels but with No Bracelets (Head Only). No Bracelets would lower the retailer costs and Seiko was known to sell at a discount for Watch Head only. As another example the Seiko SOG watches were purchased in bulk at a discount with No Bracelets once again to lower the cost. After receiving the watches Thong Sia/Stelux added the Bracelets. I believe customers were then given the choice of either a President or Chiclet and based on the number of surviving examples I have seen the President was the more popular choice with customers.

IMO the Stelux President is a more conventional looking bracelet that would appeal to the vast majority of buyers. The Stelux Chiclet is a bizarre, futuristic, space age, pillow shaped oddity.

I only have scant evidence to support this theory but I thought I would throw it out there.

 

[Jim W]

To be clear: the Spanish day wheel thing is my theory (that all Silvers originall had Chinese or Roman), which I'm testing by asking people to come forward with watches that disprove it... Thanks for participating in the test

Interesting theory Ewan.
My silver Resist 6001 has an Italian day wheel. I suppose it may have been changed, but I have no reason to believe that it has.

 

[skg7548]

Thanks for the photos of the Silver Pogues with the Diamond Link Bracelets (Personally I really like the look) but as you stated the straight ends are not a great fit. Excellent detective work on the Chinese Day Wheel - that would certainly add more evidence to the Silver Pogues (especially the Proofs) being only originally sold in China (Hong Kong). As these watches are Hard to Find and cloaked in mystery finding evidence or catalog/advertising photos is proving very difficult.

As long as we are only proposing theories here is one that I believe is a real possiblity:

This is what I know:

The Silver Proofs were sold in Hong Kong by Thong Sia in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Thong Sia was a very large watch dealer and Seiko's only Authorized Dealer in Hong Kong. Thong Sia was owned by Wong Chue Meng. Wong Chue Meng also founded Stelux in 1963. Stelux was the manufacturer of both the Seiko President and Chiclet Bracelets. Wong Chue Meng owned both Thong Sia (the retailer of Seiko Watches in Hong Kong) and Stelux (the manufacturer of bracelets for Seiko).

This is my theory:

I believe it is possible Thong Sia ordered the Silver Proof 6139 watches from Seiko with Chinese Day Wheels but with No Bracelets (Head Only). No Bracelets would lower the retailer costs and Seiko was known to sell at a discount for Watch Head only. The Seiko SOG watches were purchased in bulk at a discount with No Bracelets once again to lower the cost. After receiving the watches Thong Sia/Stelux added the Bracelets. I believe customers were then given the choice of either a President or Chiclet and based on the number of surviving examples I have seen the President was more popular with customers.

IMO the Stelux President is a more conventional looking bracelet that would appeal to the vast majority of buyers. The Stelux Chiclet is a bizarre, futuristic, space age, pillow shaped oddity.

I only have scant evidence to support this theory but I thought I would throw it out there.

Great info, the known detail of the retailer is great info for the collector, suggesting perhaps silver dial was exclusive to this outlet or he just secured a large batch? and the theory makes good sense to explain the bracelet types.

 

[ewand]

Interesting theory about Thong Sia doing a special order, at least for the first batch. It could well stack up that Seiko never intended the silver dial to be mainstream and that's why all of the catalog photos show blue or yellow dial watches. Even the History of the Speedtimer book has no mention or photos of a Silver-dial 6139-600x.

If Thong Sia was the exclusive distributor, were they connected with the publishers of the catalog right at the top (Universal Supplies)?

 

[skg7548]

An interesting thread this one and nice to follow but a post earlier up the list mentions the little square under the 60 of the tachy ring being later, this means my 6000 black/blue? dial proof/notch serial 06 shouldn't be like this then
All my 600x's are rebuilt using original parts in the main. My 6005 is virtually original though other than crystal and the best of my few.
A couple may have AM tachy rings, perhaps this is one as it's very well coloured without fade to the blue or red yet some scratches suggesting age.
My notes on them were lost in a burnt out PC so memory doesn't reach back to what had to be done to each of them.
JimW saw a gold one once at Ryton and felt sure the dial is AM based on the sub dial markers.

Don't want to hijack this silver topic thread, just some thoughts coming to mind as I follow.

http://imgur.com/a/uMx44lf

 

[TheTigerUK]

Thats a nice one Steve but the bezel is wrong for a proof and resist, that one wasent until 1976.

 

[skg7548]

Thats a nice one Steve but the bezel is wrong for a proof and resist, that one wasent until 1976.

Yes the very point I was making John, I think the gold dial one that Jim thinks is a fake could give up it's one for a swap over, that watch has a 73 case back and would also then be wrong but no harm if it's a mongrel already.

 

[CombatID]

FWIW, this is on its way to me from Venezuela. I decided to pull the trigger after some negotiations with the seller and getting input on the T-dial authenticity input from several folks here. I bought it for the dial, hands, tachyring, caseback and the facts that it seems to run. I’m concerned that the dial text on the bottom may be smeared due to oil absorption (sir Alan hypothesis), so it may not be recoverable. We shall see.

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[bigbluekyle]

I was also watching that one. I am surprised it lasted as long as it did. IMO a Good Watch at a Good Price. Like many I am very hesitant on anything from Venezuela but that Silver Pogue looked like it was worth the risk Hard to tell the condition of the Dial but it looks like with a re-lume of the hour markers and maybe the hands you would have a good one. Original President bracelet is a Big Plus - I sure would not enjoy refinishing that bracelet with those oval links

 

[Grammarofdesign]

@bigbluekyle:

"IMO the Stelux President is a more conventional looking bracelet that would appeal to the vast majority of buyers. The Stelux Chiclet is a bizarre, futuristic, space age, pillow shaped oddity."

When I had my chicklet I thought it was the most comfortable version.

 

[CombatID]

I was also watching that one. I am surprised it lasted as long as it did. IMO a Good Watch at a Good Price. Like many I am very hesitant on anything from Venezuela but that Silver Pogue looked like it was worth the risk Hard to tell the condition of the Dial but it looks like with a re-lume of the hour markers and maybe the hands you would have a good one. Original President bracelet is a Big Plus - I sure would not enjoy refinishing that bracelet with those oval links

Ha! You are right. I may ship this bracelet off to John.

But I have to say that this seller was a joy to work with. He promptly answered my questions, sent more photos, and got the watch in the mail the next day with DHL tracking. He has a lot of honest (well worn) Seikos on his feed on our favorite auction site.

This will be fun!


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[Grammarofdesign]

I have had only good experiences with sellers in Venezuela. One guy used an old cigar wooden box, it fell out of whatever cardboard box he had, but he had the foresight to put a copy of the address label on the inner cigar box. So I got a call from FedEx saying my cigars were in their lost and found ! I was like 'if that's from Venezeula open it up and see if it's an old Seiko 6139-8022' which it was ! Anyway the guy was a great seller and I bought maybe 4 or 5 7016's from there over the years, too.

 

[Reynaldo]

-6002, March ‘72. I got lucky with this one off eBay and came from New Zealand. It’s in nice condition, I stumbled upon it while looking for a blue dial.
This is an old picture taken with previous phone I had, I’ll see if I can get around talking better ones tomorrow.

Few more shots but still not very good pictures:

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[bigbluekyle]

-6002, March ‘72. I got lucky with this one off eBay and came from New Zealand. It’s in nice condition, I stumbled upon it while looking for a blue dial.
This is an old picture taken with previous phone I had, I’ll see if I can get around talking better ones tomorrow.

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Are you kidding me...Better?... That is the One of the Best Photos I have ever seen of a Silver Pogue....Just Stunning... Thanks for Sharing

 

[bigbluekyle]

In 1970 in addition to their flagship Watch Dealership in Hong Kong Thong Sia also operated a retail store in Singapore.

Thong Sia Seiko Guarantee Certificate

Although it is hard to read the detail and fine print it looks like Thong Sia is directly offering the Guarantee for the Purchase of a Seiko Watch. Also the paperwork has an additional stamp by another Watch Dealer (Haven & Co?). I am only speculating here but it looks like Thong Sia might have been acting as a Distributor for Seiko Watches.

 

[bigbluekyle]

... I almost forgot.... Thong Sia was originally started by Wong Chue Meng in Thailand in the 1960's before moving to Hong Kong - perhaps selling Seiko Watches to US Military Personnel stationed in Thailand during the Vietnam War (US Air Force) or GI's serving in Vietnam who often traveled to Thailand for R & R (Rest and Relaxation/Vacation)

 

[Reynaldo]

Are you kidding me...Better?... That is the One of the Best Photos I have ever seen of a Silver Pogue....Just Stunning... Thanks for Sharing

Well, thanks bro! Cool stelux details.
I got lucky on this one and just liked it when stumbled upon it and might have payed more than fair for it at that time but it caught my attention. One of the best variants as far as color scheme, why didn’t it have equal production numbers as the gold and blue, hmm.


Excellent thread and info yet again Ewand.


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[bigbluekyle]

 

[bbilford83]

All, apologies for checking this thread a few days late, but I can add my data point that pretty strongly supports the theories expressed so far here. I got my near-NOS proof silver 6139-6000 from the original owner along with two other watches - a 6119-6020 sports diver and a 6139-6000 proof gold dial - who reported buying all three in Hong Kong in January of 1970. The silver's dial is 6030T, the day wheel is English/Chinese, and the bracelet is a Stelux chiclet. Even more on point, the silver came with the Thong Sia sales paperwork, filled out to list the serial number that matches the watch. So I have no doubt it was sold there. Pics:

Also, I agree there was definitely no JDM silver dial version - I say this having devoted an unhealthy amount of time to tracking down every possible dial color, dial type (resist/proof/blank), and target market (speedtimer or not) example of 6139-600X and 6139-603X. I'm still missing an export silver resist and an export silver blank, but having tracked down the rarest of the rare (the Sunrise, the Forward, the 603X resist Italian export, and the 603X blank French export), I'm sure at this point I would've seen at least one silver JDM if it existed. All that said, if anyone's ever interested in selling/trading for a silver resist or blank, please reach out!

Cheers,