The Watch Site banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I finally managed to photograph the hub cap of the 9F61/2.

Abóve the three hands sits a non rotating cap fixed on the hub where there normally is a pin poking through a hole.
It is neat quality detail that makes for a noticeable difference.

It came out best on the one in gold:



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
nhoJ said:
Now why not do that for all of them? Looks much more professional.
In the metal it looks even more impressive since you nótice the difference between the stationary cap and the ticking seconds hand.
The cap is really a cental hub.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
Hello HomoCaballus,


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you- are you saying the hub does not rotate along with the rest of the second hand? If so, I don't think this is the case, as there is nothing stationary for the hub to be affixed to in that area- everything is rotating. Forgive me if I misunderstand. I too think it is a nice touch that makes "ordinary" sweep second hand construction/execution look "cheap".


Stephen: Spring Drive models also use this hub- it appears to be friction fit onto the base second hand, kind of like a cover for the unsightly hole. Seiko also has used this in the past for some of their early, higher-end quartz models, as well as higher-end mechanical (I remember seeing a photo of Axel's 6146 GS recently that had this, IIRC). Here is one from the early 70's on a 3803:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
964 Posts
I doubt, if HomoCaballus has been referring to just a cap on the second hand, but here's a close-up of the mentioned 6146:


He (HomoCaballus) clearly stated, that the "hub" was not rotating. It should not be a problem to realize something like that, but I cannot see the benefit neither. :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
rileynp said:
Hello HomoCaballus,


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you- are you saying the hub does not rotate along with the rest of the second hand? If so, I don't think this is the case, as there is nothing stationary for the hub to be affixed to in that area- everything is rotating.
No, you do not misunderstand me. Yes the cap is NOT rotating.

You are correct that in a normal setup there is nothing stationary. Yes you fully grasp the implication. I am fully aware of it and it boggled my mind too.
The cap does NOT rotate THUS the set up has a stationary centre axle. The hand gearwheels turn aroúnd it.
This is less strange then it may seem as this movement has a 50 year maintenance free sealed gearbox. Firmly located stationary axles would help stabelise the gear train, including the main axle.

As I wrote the difference in relative movement is very noticeable and quite a feature. The watch face gets a céntre. Once you have become accustomed to it, other watches simply miss it.
If I would have the appropriate gear I would lóve to put the action on youtube. I don't, so I just show it to the very few friends interested (or polite) enough to lóók at it ;)

There is a film on youtube that does sort of shows it when you know to look for it. In the metal it is far more striking as your mind processes your vision realtime in 3D.
It really is an outstanding class act:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9N2jnyWcM

In real life each step of the seconds hand is a display of controlled movement; it is a precisely measured deliberate stroke. The stationary central cap accentuates it.
The roachman himself writes about this precise stroke and it realy is someting one needs to behold to appreciate.

I have a set of three



because of the outstanding engineering and time keeping of the GS 9F61.
It can be appreciated as a piece of state of the art engineering and craftsmanship in the same way as a GS mechanical movement. It simply is space age technology.
The movement is even designed to lóók good (notice the 'funny' centre juwel);

[img]

and if I can find a GS glass caseback that is compatible I would like to fit it to one of mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Axel66 said:
He (HomoCaballus) clearly stated, that the "hub" was not rotating. It should not be a problem to realize something like that, but I cannot see the benefit neither. :eek:
Do you see the advantage of solidly centred stationary hubs in the light of the sealed gearbox not meant to receive any attention for 50 running years?
Is think the cub cap is a neat and gratefully exploited but primairily unintentional spin off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
nhoJ said:
Amazing. I thought it was just cosmetic.
No, it 'just' caps off quality engineering.

I would REALLY like to see the dial side of the movement. The centre bearing must be unique. Not only does it support the three stems for the hands rotating on the central straionary axle, it must be an airtight bearing too. The gearbox must be sealed in order to preven oxiation of the lubricant. This oxidation is the reason for the aging of the lubricants and thus the 5 year service interval of mechanical movements.
It stands to reason that the centre bearing cannot be a conventional roller bearing or a simple drilled juwel. I would like to séé because I cannot imagine how they achieved reliable sealing without excessive friction. It must be simple yet unconventional. Intriguing.
The hub cap just points it out :-*
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
HomoCaballus said:
No, you do not misunderstand me. Yes the cap is NOT rotating.

You are correct that in a normal setup there is nothing stationary. Yes you fully grasp the implication. I am fully aware of it and it boggled my mind too.
The cap does NOT rotate THUS the set up has a stationary centre axle. The hand gearwheels turn aroúnd it.
This is less strange then it may seem as this movement has a 50 year maintenance free sealed gearbox. Firmly located stationary axles would help stabelise the gear train, including the main axle.

Hi again,
To preface, I don't want this to turn into an argument, but I think you may be mistaken, based currently and solely on my knowledge of design mechanics as it relates to watches (admittedly open to be disproved). I have no proof currently, since I do not own a 9F-powered watch- yet. It is certainly on the list though, and I can see why you appreciate the watch as much as you do.


My theory is that due to the near-perfect machining and polish, the central hub of the hand does not appear to rotate to you- there is nothing out of place or differentiable to it- light must be reflected from it in such a way that it appears motionless. For it to remain motionless, the sweep seconds wheel would need to be hollow, and this supposed central axis would need to be supported on the bridge side above the sweep seconds wheel. Your picture of the 9F movement shows this is not the case- the only thing to be found in the center of the movement is a jewel with a pivot inside, the traditional setup. I have a drawing here from Seiko Japan's website (here) that shows the geartrain of the 9F movement- the sweep seconds wheel (third one from the left) is definitely not hollow, it is of traditional design and dimensions.




[quote=HomoCaballus]
If I would have the appropriate gear I would lóve to put the action on youtube. I don't, so I just show it to the very few friends interested (or polite) enough to lóók at it ;)

There is a film on youtube that does sort of shows it when you know to look for it. In the metal it is far more striking as your mind processes your vision realtime in 3D.
It really is an outstanding class act:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9N2jnyWcM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9N2jnyWcM[/url]

[/quote]


Trying to be scientific about it, I don't know that a video would be enough to confirm your theory. The one you linked is not clear enough to make out the detailed movement or non-movement of the hub. I think one would need to mark the central hub (with an ink mark or piece of Rodico or some such) and then observe the watch's running, to see if said indicator moves with the second hand. This would be less invasive than dismantling the movement, but still more invasive than I bet you want to undertake :-) I doubt we will have anyone chime in who has worked on this caliber, so barring that, we might be at an impasse.


To touch on one other thing, many of your issues in understanding the 9F movement's design would be closer to resolved if you take the "50 year maintenance free sealed gearbox" with a grain of marketing salt. "Sealed" in engineering terms is more stringent than the "sealed" I believe marketing/advertising hints at. The 9F is nothing to sneeze at, but it has not been designed with alien technology, from what I can piece together- many of it's design elements and systems have been used by Seiko in the past in similar forms. My opinion only. It is an expensive question for me to answer (buying a 9F watch to take apart), so for now it will remain unanswered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
As I wrote, the youtube ís iffy. If you don't want to see it you don't have too ;)

My theory is that you simply don't believe it untill you MUST see it.
Ok, so you don't.
There are a lot of people denying the evolution.

Looking at it scientifically, a specified 50 years service interval is a long time.
But then you don't believe this too.
So be it.

I háve three, looked at them though a magnifying eye piece under artificial lighting and am :-\

TIOLI

Have fun, Í do :)

Petrus
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,405 Posts
Imho whether the hub cap rotates or not is not so important. These are high quality hand-assembled watches with an incredible level of finish and attention to details like the hub cap just proves they are aimed at the high end of the quartz watch market.
Thanks for the macro shots (and Axel, your 6146 shot is out of this world!).
Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
ADB said:
Imho whether the hub cap rotates or not is not so important. These are high quality hand-assembled watches with an incredible level of finish and attention to details like the hub cap just proves they are aimed at the high end of the quartz watch market.
Which is why thát was the crux of my topic starter.

I háve three, did have a goooooood look and had others look at it.
Let´s suppose that the finish is so good that through a watchmakers magnifyer the eye is still deceived, then that may be an even bigger feat :-*


The way I see it, these movements are on par with GS mechanicals in perfection of engineering and craftsmanship.
The difference is that the one is perfection of steam age based technology and the other is perfection of space age based technology.
Apart from the movement driving the hands the rest of the watch is identical, underlining my view on the appreciation bit.

If you have the chance, have a look at the hub cap. Wether actually stationary or só well finished that it appears to be, it makes a visual :-\ of quality.

Petrus
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Found another neat close up. All stationary so no movement at all, relative or not ;)

It does illustrate that there is a ´dot´ ón the seconds hand.
Whatever and however, stationary or rotating, it is very well finished.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
964 Posts
HomoCaballus said:
Do you see the advantage of solidly centred stationary hubs in the light of the sealed gearbox not meant to receive any attention for 50 running years?
Is think the cub cap is a neat and gratefully exploited but primairily unintentional spin off.
No, I do not see the mechanical advantage in this case, sorry.

Cheers,

Axel
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
HomoCaballus said:
As I wrote, the youtube ís iffy. If you don't want to see it you don't have too ;)

My theory is that you simply don't believe it untill you MUST see it.
Ok, so you don't.
There are a lot of people denying the evolution.

Looking at it scientifically, a specified 50 years service interval is a long time.
But then you don't believe this too.
So be it.

I háve three, looked at them though a magnifying eye piece under artificial lighting and am :-\

TIOLI

Have fun, Í do :)

Petrus

Hi Petrus,
Thank you for an interesting and civil discussion, it was enjoyable in that I got to peruse a lot of 9F pictures while searching for information on the internet- never a bad thing. But at this point, that's all my information is limited to. Do any of the manuals that came with the Grand Seiko Quartz watches mention the 50 year service interval? I can't find the genesis of that statement on the internet, though it is passed around pretty casually in online discussion. Again, my intimate familiarity with watches that aren't running perfectly shows me this stretches the imagination- cannon pinion lubrication deteriorates, along with calendar lubrication, setting lubrication- lubrication breaks down, "sealed" or not. Traditionally-designed systems like these need lubrication. Ergo...


A well-designed quartz watch will last longer without service compared to a torque/friction-heavy mechanical watch (if in a sealed watch case), this is true and proven through experience- I've seen quartz calibered watches from Seiko made in the later 70's to early 80's that appear to have never been serviced and are still running- I've also seen the same types of watches that are not still running- due to a break-down in lubrication.


But back to the mysterious hub- what do you think about this Seiko-produced diagram, how do you explain it? It is stylized to a point in that the train is laid out side by side to show detail (when in reality the sweep seconds pinion goes through the cannon pinion (5th wheel from the left)), but otherwise it shows a conventional gear train design relating to the sweep seconds wheel:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
rileynp said:
But back to the mysterious hub- what do you think about this Seiko-produced diagram, how do you explain it?
As you yourself observe it is a highly stylised drawing which bears no relation to the design, engineering or construction apart from the basics serving the marketing goal of the article.

I cannot make head nor tails of it in relation to the jewels in the ´gearbox´.
The three hands sit on the same column so there are at least two hollow stubs whereas none is drawn so there could be three with a centre shaft just as easily.
So my ´explanation´ is that the drawing it is a nondescriptive illustration.

There is no other information available on the movement which is to be expected as they have to be sent back to the GS premises for anything more than a battery replacement.

The live close up of the hub cap through an eye piece convinces mé that there is a stationary centre shaft since the cap is stationary.
This is why I remarked that I would like to see a close up of the óther side of the movement.

As we do not have a movement to dissect the only thing I can do to ´convince´ anyone is to invite them to have a look at the real thing through a watchmakers eye-piece.

Although it tells un nóthing about the 9F, I would like to bring to memory that with the Astological Observatory Cronos Seiko went so far as to seal the cases inside a vacuüm chamber to minimise oxidation of the movement.
No air, no oxigen, no oxidation. This to put ´sealing´ in a Seiko perspective, although I think we should not take the concept to such extremes with respect to the ´sealing´ of the 9F gearbox ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Great thread, very informative.

The cap is a sweet touch, whether it rotates or not, whether it is functional or not. The 9F Grand Seikos are definitely some of the super-bargains of the 2nd hand watch world, if you don't mind a 'smaller' watch.

Speaking of the cap, 6sxx movements have it too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
'Small' indeed between brackets. I have a 7,5" wrist and find the format spot on.
Being clean threehanders is not bling either.
They are understated watches which you do not wear for them to stand out. Literally and figuratively.
Taste apart the facts of a véry accurate movement in a near perfect case remain.

Understated, unknown, 'only a quartz' and 'only a Seiko' makes that they are amazingly undervalued. Sharply price new and bargains pre-owned.
Remember they share the case/dial/hands/bracelet with the rest of the GS line :-* and have the most accurate movement of the lot. The 8) hub cab is a detail underlining this.

Btw. I have seen something akin on one or two Swiss watches too. Per example the in-house Chopard models have the hole camouflaged too. It this case it is by making the centre spindle as a pin with a head. It is not as neat as the GS termination but still looks better that the hole in combination with stainless steel hands but out of place on gold coloured hands.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top