A interesting read.. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=272575
kraftwerck
:iagree:Time said:you have to be subscribed to see the thread. I hate when forums do that... :
Well, let me resume it.
Seiko GS is considered (by many Rolex forumers) a better watch than any Rolex. But Seiko fails in marketing their products.
Rolexs are easier to flip than any Seiko GS.
Seiko GS is considered (by many Rolex forumers) a better watch than any Rolex. But Seiko fails in marketing their products.
Rolexs are easier to flip than any Seiko GS.
I haven't read the article - again, as a non-member I cannot see it(...)
As owner of one Rolex (Sub no date) I can clearly see the point that a GS is a better watch than a Rolex. I don't own a GS, but when I look at my Marinemaster next to my Sub, I can not see any justification for the price difference! And when wearing them, I can honestly say that my MM is more accurate than the Sub. And don't start me about the lumen!
I can see the point that Rolex' marketing is better than Seikos in some ways. Rolex has more exposure (expensive events!), where every Seiko has the 'Seiko 5 image'... Only for some, Seiko stands out: the GS models and certainly a watch like the Springdrive Spacewalk! On the other hand, I think it's nice that on a forum like this, people can be very happy with a new incoming watch that costed no more than 25 or 50 bucks and that at the same time, on the same page people are very happy with their new Springdrive!
And don't start about modding... modding a Seiko has become a sub culture in the world of owning a Seiko. In fact, I guess that more than 50% of the members here have a modded Seiko somewhere. Now, when it comes to modding a Rolex... wow... let's say that not everybody is happy with that.
Sure, Rolex can be sold off very quickly, but perhaps Seiko owners hold their watches because they don't want to sell them!
Menno
As owner of one Rolex (Sub no date) I can clearly see the point that a GS is a better watch than a Rolex. I don't own a GS, but when I look at my Marinemaster next to my Sub, I can not see any justification for the price difference! And when wearing them, I can honestly say that my MM is more accurate than the Sub. And don't start me about the lumen!
I can see the point that Rolex' marketing is better than Seikos in some ways. Rolex has more exposure (expensive events!), where every Seiko has the 'Seiko 5 image'... Only for some, Seiko stands out: the GS models and certainly a watch like the Springdrive Spacewalk! On the other hand, I think it's nice that on a forum like this, people can be very happy with a new incoming watch that costed no more than 25 or 50 bucks and that at the same time, on the same page people are very happy with their new Springdrive!
And don't start about modding... modding a Seiko has become a sub culture in the world of owning a Seiko. In fact, I guess that more than 50% of the members here have a modded Seiko somewhere. Now, when it comes to modding a Rolex... wow... let's say that not everybody is happy with that.
Sure, Rolex can be sold off very quickly, but perhaps Seiko owners hold their watches because they don't want to sell them!
Menno
Thenk you Menno: its as if you read the whole 16 pages of the thread.
If you have two minutes to spare, go to the forum and subscribe. This thread is a cool read.
A pearl: "-Could someone point me in the right direction where I can find all these Grand Seikos with poor resale value?
I've wanted one for years but can't seem to find all these great deals that should be out there considering GS has such poor resale value. -"
If you have two minutes to spare, go to the forum and subscribe. This thread is a cool read.
A pearl: "-Could someone point me in the right direction where I can find all these Grand Seikos with poor resale value?
I've wanted one for years but can't seem to find all these great deals that should be out there considering GS has such poor resale value. -"
It definitely worked in my case. Apparently I'm one of the hoi polloi and not one of the hoity toity.ncb123 said:It's to keep us Seiko riffraff out
Funniest part is seeing that after the 1st 3-4 pages of response, the consensus is reached that quality for the GS exceeds most Rolexes, and then all the praise comes rolling out. Except one guy. He keeps going on and on about how the Rolex brand is worth more, and that Seiko's are just junk, and while he's arguably right on the brand value part, the Rolex folks over there just keep pounding on him that he's a fool, and the GS is better than their treasured Rolexes.
Not what you expect for any focused forum, to go "against" the affiliation they have, that caused them to join a forum in the 1st place.
Not what you expect for any focused forum, to go "against" the affiliation they have, that caused them to join a forum in the 1st place.
Nice balance in the thread between the trolls and the trolled, and that the consensus held GS superior to Rolex in manufacture (on a Rolex forum) was interesting.
The counterpoint from the Rolex defenders was that even if disproportionately expensive relative to their quality, the Rolex provides a greater value due to resale, reliability, and service ease/cost.
To me, that's putting a lot of faith in the resale of an 800,000 unit/year luxury commodity, which looks to me like a classic bubble.
It may not pop, but I don't expect the future collector's market for 2010-era Rolexes to be disproportionately competitive when compared to the 5-10,000 unit GS.
The counterpoint from the Rolex defenders was that even if disproportionately expensive relative to their quality, the Rolex provides a greater value due to resale, reliability, and service ease/cost.
To me, that's putting a lot of faith in the resale of an 800,000 unit/year luxury commodity, which looks to me like a classic bubble.
It may not pop, but I don't expect the future collector's market for 2010-era Rolexes to be disproportionately competitive when compared to the 5-10,000 unit GS.
I have not been shopping for Rolex here in the USA but I can tell you Rolex is king of the hill in Bangkok and Thailand. They are bought and sold not so much as watches but as gold is bought and sold
buyers are more interested in accruing value more than how good the actual watch is. I remember being in a small shop in the Amarin center near Siam Square and the guys were tossing their rolex watches around with abandon bargining and schmoozing
I pulled out my old grand seiko manual wind hi beat and they all said what a wonderful watch it is and how much better than a rolex but went right on buying and selling the rolex because it is a known commodity.
I asked them what my watch was worth and they didn't have and answer. On the other hand even in the department store watch counters which on average are much much more extensive than ours here in the USA every one recognized my old grand seiko when I showed it, "Oh Grand Seiko Grand Seiko" was by far the most common response.
buyers are more interested in accruing value more than how good the actual watch is. I remember being in a small shop in the Amarin center near Siam Square and the guys were tossing their rolex watches around with abandon bargining and schmoozing
I pulled out my old grand seiko manual wind hi beat and they all said what a wonderful watch it is and how much better than a rolex but went right on buying and selling the rolex because it is a known commodity.
I asked them what my watch was worth and they didn't have and answer. On the other hand even in the department store watch counters which on average are much much more extensive than ours here in the USA every one recognized my old grand seiko when I showed it, "Oh Grand Seiko Grand Seiko" was by far the most common response.
My Father in law showed me his Rolex GMT-Master 2 and to be quite frank the quality of the watch in some areas was not even as good as a Seiko Monster (bracelet). The whole feel of the watch was not "lots of dollars"
The upper market Seiko watches are in a league of their own when in comes to quality vs price.
The upper market Seiko watches are in a league of their own when in comes to quality vs price.
In the US, people are so brainwashed into the whole Swiss thing, especially Rolex. Japanese watches will never garner the same level of respect even if they are as good or better. It's a shame.
A friend of mine was looking to buy a Submariner. Knowing I'm a watch guy he asked my opinion. We talked about how yes, it's a great watch but that the price is reflective of its cachet, not its workmanship, accuracy, dependability, etc. Knowing already that he doesn't get my Seiko thing, I gave him several other brands that he should consider. Marques that aren't going to be on the wrist of every other guy at the bar such as Sinn, Glycine, and Ball.
A few days later he sees me wearing my MM300. He looks at it, and likes it. We talk about the monocoque case, the brushing of the hands, the case lines, the movement, accuracy, etc. When I told him the price he was shocked that I paid that much for a Seiko. Never mind that he was talking about buying a Rolex at 2 1/2 times the price. I asked him why he was ok with a $6000 sub? He said "it's a Rolex ".
So you have it, folks.
A friend of mine was looking to buy a Submariner. Knowing I'm a watch guy he asked my opinion. We talked about how yes, it's a great watch but that the price is reflective of its cachet, not its workmanship, accuracy, dependability, etc. Knowing already that he doesn't get my Seiko thing, I gave him several other brands that he should consider. Marques that aren't going to be on the wrist of every other guy at the bar such as Sinn, Glycine, and Ball.
A few days later he sees me wearing my MM300. He looks at it, and likes it. We talk about the monocoque case, the brushing of the hands, the case lines, the movement, accuracy, etc. When I told him the price he was shocked that I paid that much for a Seiko. Never mind that he was talking about buying a Rolex at 2 1/2 times the price. I asked him why he was ok with a $6000 sub? He said "it's a Rolex ".
So you have it, folks.
i like seiko as much as any of you here, but rest assured if any of us were offered a suitcase of vintage rolex vs vintage seiko for free to fund our grandkids' education, NONE of us would choose the seiko case. granted, the grand seikos of today are as refined, if not moreso, than their swiss counterparts, but in the 50s and 60s and even the 70s, the innovation and design of rolex was really heads above alot of brands, seiko included.
one thing i've seen from my watch friends over many forums over the years is that more than a few have sold off some of their favorite (and i mean some kick ass models) seikos to buy a vintage rolex, but i have never, ever heard of one sell a few rolex to buy a grand seiko, new or vintage. speaking purely from a vintage vantage point, i would have no problem spending $4-5k (or whatever the current fmv is) for a 6215 or spending $12-15k for a rolex 1655 mcqueen (or $17-20k for a DRSD if you want to compare apples to apples for a sub type watch) if the tuitions were paid for.
i agree with Lucilinburhuc, most rolex dudes don't look down on seiko. otoh, it does seem at times as if some seiko guys do raise the nose to rolex, a form of reverse snobbery, for the lack of a better description. we, as watch lovers, really should embrace whatever our fellow wis enjoy whether it be a $xx,xxx swiss watch or a nice grouping of $x.xx timexes...i've got two sons and if one wants to blow his cash on rolex, so be it! if his brother wants to only buys seikos because he likes the colors of the 70s, great! i'm not going to disuade either of them one bit; what i will do is to guide them down the history of each brand and tell them what i have learned over the years.
<* shark >>><
one thing i've seen from my watch friends over many forums over the years is that more than a few have sold off some of their favorite (and i mean some kick ass models) seikos to buy a vintage rolex, but i have never, ever heard of one sell a few rolex to buy a grand seiko, new or vintage. speaking purely from a vintage vantage point, i would have no problem spending $4-5k (or whatever the current fmv is) for a 6215 or spending $12-15k for a rolex 1655 mcqueen (or $17-20k for a DRSD if you want to compare apples to apples for a sub type watch) if the tuitions were paid for.
i agree with Lucilinburhuc, most rolex dudes don't look down on seiko. otoh, it does seem at times as if some seiko guys do raise the nose to rolex, a form of reverse snobbery, for the lack of a better description. we, as watch lovers, really should embrace whatever our fellow wis enjoy whether it be a $xx,xxx swiss watch or a nice grouping of $x.xx timexes...i've got two sons and if one wants to blow his cash on rolex, so be it! if his brother wants to only buys seikos because he likes the colors of the 70s, great! i'm not going to disuade either of them one bit; what i will do is to guide them down the history of each brand and tell them what i have learned over the years.
<* shark >>><
Depends what watches were in that suitcase. There are a lot of Seikos that over the past 5 years have appreciated more (percentage wise) than many Rolex models.thesharkman said:
I'd take a case of $10,000.00 worth of 6309's and 6105's over a case of $10,000 worth of Datejusts (is that even two watches?
any day of the week and I bet I'm not the only one.
lol... pete.
nope, no qualifications, but if you must, i said a suitcase full. so, a suitcase full of red subs, DRSDs, mcqueens, mil subs, milgausses and newmans should do the trick for the rolex side (we'll throw in one datejust to be fair). you can put in any seikos you want as long as the amount of watches were the same... grand seikos, 6215s, whatever you wanted. =) we would be talking about value right at the second of the offer, not next year or a few years from now. i do know what you refer to though.
<* shark >>><
nope, no qualifications, but if you must, i said a suitcase full. so, a suitcase full of red subs, DRSDs, mcqueens, mil subs, milgausses and newmans should do the trick for the rolex side (we'll throw in one datejust to be fair). you can put in any seikos you want as long as the amount of watches were the same... grand seikos, 6215s, whatever you wanted. =) we would be talking about value right at the second of the offer, not next year or a few years from now. i do know what you refer to though.
<* shark >>><
The vintage red subs, DRSDs, mcqueens, mil subs, milgausses and newmans are valuable because of their rarity and to some degree their horological significance.
For these vintage models, production numbers were low, the watches were hand made, and Rolex's technological contributions were significant.
For watches made this decade, it's not at all clear that one should take a $100,000 suitcase of Rolex over a $100,000 suitcase of GS.
For these vintage models, production numbers were low, the watches were hand made, and Rolex's technological contributions were significant.
For watches made this decade, it's not at all clear that one should take a $100,000 suitcase of Rolex over a $100,000 suitcase of GS.
I think the Seiko 8L35 is as good, if not better movement than the Rolex.
However, I believe the MM 300 in particular suffers from some significant deficiencies.
1) The crown and case tube are woefully under-engineered for a $2000.00 watch. You're getting the same technology that Seiko uses in their $200.00 SKX series of divers. The Rolex Triplock crown/tube system is the best and it's made to be repaired/replaced easily by any competent watch maker with access to the parts. No need for a new mid-case or other extensive repair.
2) No sapphire crystal. Ridiculous at this price point regardless of Seiko's rationalization that Hardlex is "superior" for dive watch applications.
3) The bezel insert of the MM 300 cannot be replaced, one must buy an entire new bezel w/insert and they're very expensive. A Rolex Sub/SD insert can be replaced for $200.00 or less all day long.
JMHO.
However, I believe the MM 300 in particular suffers from some significant deficiencies.
1) The crown and case tube are woefully under-engineered for a $2000.00 watch. You're getting the same technology that Seiko uses in their $200.00 SKX series of divers. The Rolex Triplock crown/tube system is the best and it's made to be repaired/replaced easily by any competent watch maker with access to the parts. No need for a new mid-case or other extensive repair.
2) No sapphire crystal. Ridiculous at this price point regardless of Seiko's rationalization that Hardlex is "superior" for dive watch applications.
3) The bezel insert of the MM 300 cannot be replaced, one must buy an entire new bezel w/insert and they're very expensive. A Rolex Sub/SD insert can be replaced for $200.00 or less all day long.
JMHO.
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