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Discussion Starter #1
It's bad enough they are cheaply built internally, but every single 7S36 that I have runs fast no matter what, the best I could get the last one down to was +4 minutes a day. I don't have a timer so I regulate them the old school way over a couple of days. The amplitude looks fine on all of them (one was low, and I adjusted the harispring a tad to get it somewhat normal), but they run fast.

The 63XX series I basically just reassemble and set the regulator to 0 and they are are within a minute a day. Has anyone else run into this problem with the 7S36's?
 

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That's an unusual situation. What is the regulator lever position when still running fast? I am wondering you may have moved the lever too far.

BTW: I used to do regulating like this until recently, I bought a Timegrapher. Its the way to go believe me, you get instant feedback and it makes regulating quick and removes the guesswork. You will appreciate how sensitive the adjustments can be.
 

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7S36's usually run very well and are normally as good or better regulated than their two jewel lesser siblings are.
But all 7S movements are very sensitive to regulation, as Mike says - a timegrapher or similar will make life easier.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the responses guys. The position on the regulator when running fast is either 0 or 1-2 degress towards towards -. I fiddled with the latest one last night, and the regulator on that one is just about 1/4 of the way from all the way 0 and it seems to be holding time finally. I have heard that the 36's can sometimes have the hairspring come out of tension and thus have the amplitude reduced but I have only seen (and managed to fix) that once. The other one I had with poor amplitude had it come back after a service.

I've been looking at the $200.00 Chinese timegraphers and I am getting close to buying one. Now that I am approaching 20 watches I think it might be time....
 

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The 7S36A has the same balance as the 7001A through to 7025A and 7S26A/7S25A/7S35A.
The 7S36B/C has the same balance as 7S25/26B/C 4R35A+B/4R36A, 4R15/16, NH35+36/NH25+26
So there are no inherent 7S36 only hairspring issues - but some of the early B spec movements (predominantly 7S26B) with Etachron adjustment hadn't been regulated tightly enough to constrain the hairspring within the adjustable curb pin under heavy shock loading.
Noah Riley explains it here http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1266711718/Seiko+7s26B+vs+7s26A+-+Seiko+read+this!
 

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I've had no trouble regulating them:) Just leave them in the two main positions; dial up and then crown down.

I've got a Timegrapher (the cheapest one on ebay from China) and its great but I'd been happy to take a few days to time watches the old skool way - it works fine and especially if I was an enthusiast with his own watches.
 

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Ahh, the Noah Riley post must have been the one I saw about the hairsping business. Thanks 7S26B. I'm thinking the timegrapher is going to be the way to go in the future, so I'll have to keep an eye open for a deal on Ebay. I'm still not ready to drop 200.00 on one, but the usefulness I think is going to outweigh the cost on one, expecially since I can check the beat that way. My little collection of watch tools seems to be growing almost daily.....
 

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Ahh, the Noah Riley post must have been the one I saw about the hairsping business. Thanks 7S26B. I'm thinking the timegrapher is going to be the way to go in the future, so I'll have to keep an eye open for a deal on Ebay. I'm still not ready to drop 200.00 on one, but the usefulness I think is going to outweigh the cost on one, expecially since I can check the beat that way. My little collection of watch tools seems to be growing almost daily.....


You can get the same (or almost the same) accuracy in regulation from just taking your time regulating watches over a week or two. You don't need a TG:)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You can get the same (or almost the same) accuracy in regulation from just taking your time regulating watches over a week or two. You don't need a TG:)

And that is what I'll be doing for a while yet NZ :) I have gotten my last 7S36 done to a few seconds a day, so I am pretty happy with that. It may just be that the others I've made just have more wear than I though. They are all Ramon specials (which I love). It just seemed odd to me that I rarely run into that issue with the 6xxx series, or the 7S26, just the 7S36. Ah well, it's all part of the fun.

I'm starting to realize that the joy in this for me is the bringing back to life of an old or neglected watch, and the challenge of getting a recalcitrant movement working properly again. And of course the customizing I've started doing too..... It's kind of funny that within a year I went from knowing absolutely NOTHING about servicing a watch to being able to tear down and rebuild five calibers with my eyes closed. And actually have them run most times afterwards lol.
 

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And that is what I'll be doing for a while yet NZ :) I have gotten my last 7S36 done to a few seconds a day, so I am pretty happy with that. It may just be that the others I've made just have more wear than I though. They are all Ramon specials (which I love). It just seemed odd to me that I rarely run into that issue with the 6xxx series, or the 7S26, just the 7S36. Ah well, it's all part of the fun.

I'm starting to realize that the joy in this for me is the bringing back to life of an old or neglected watch, and the challenge of getting a recalcitrant movement working properly again. And of course the customizing I've started doing too..... It's kind of funny that within a year I went from knowing absolutely NOTHING about servicing a watch to being able to tear down and rebuild five calibers with my eyes closed. And actually have them run most times afterwards lol.


Good for you - raising the dead....and enjoying it:grin:
 

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Hello all my name is Shaun. I would just like to add when I regulate any watch, I go by the old method, I use a stop watch over a week or two that is after checking condition of the hairspring I always use small adjustments.

Shaun
 

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Hello all my name is Shaun. I would just like to add when I regulate any watch, I go by the old method, I use a stop watch over a week or two that is after checking condition of the hairspring I always use small adjustments.

Shaun
Perhaps okay for the hobbyist; but enormously inefficient for trade. Also, other information provided by a timegrapher or chronoscope aids in diagnosis/repair.

BTW, welcome to the SCWF!
 

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A quick tip for reglating without a timegrapher. It's based on a computer "binary search" for sorted data, only this time the thing you're searching" for is the correct regulator position rather than a name in a database.

Initially, don't bother with small adjustments. Set the regulator in the centre and watch the timekeeping until you can see which way it's going (fast / slow). It doesn't matter how much fast or slow it is, just which direction it's going. You can usually tell this within half an hour or so - bear in mind that 30 seconds a day gain or loss is equivalent to just over a second an hour, so you can easily spot 30 s/d errors inside an hour if you're careful.

Move the regulator half way in the required direction. So, say it's showing a gain, move it half way to "full -" and check again.

This time, move the regulator half the "remaining" distance in the appropriate direction. So, if it's now losing, you move it half way back towards centre. If it's still gaining you move it half of the remaining distance towards "full -"

Test and adjust again, once more using half the adjustment you did last time. Within about 4 adjustments you'll be moving it tiny amounts, by 5 or 6 you'll be at the practical limit of "fine" adjustment.

Obviously, it won't allow for (or show) positional or isochronal errors, but neither will a simple adjustment on a timegrapher. What it will do is let you get into the ballpark and somewhere near home base within 2 or 3 hours if the watch is basically running well. If it isn't then regulation is a waste of time anyway ;)

Also works very well for 400 day clocks after fitting new suspension springs!
 

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And that is what I'll be doing for a while yet NZ :) I have gotten my last 7S36 done to a few seconds a day, so I am pretty happy with that. It may just be that the others I've made just have more wear than I though. They are all Ramon specials (which I love). It just seemed odd to me that I rarely run into that issue with the 6xxx series, or the 7S26, just the 7S36. Ah well, it's all part of the fun.

I'm starting to realize that the joy in this for me is the bringing back to life of an old or neglected watch, and the challenge of getting a recalcitrant movement working properly again. And of course the customizing I've started doing too..... It's kind of funny that within a year I went from knowing absolutely NOTHING about servicing a watch to being able to tear down and rebuild five calibers with my eyes closed. And actually have them run most times afterwards lol.
Seriously, buy a Timegrapher! there are some all right points and good guides given, but you're just wasting time without out one - imo.

Imagine the next watch you service - or the next watch you buy even. Wthin 10 seconds you'll have a pretty good idea of how its running and possibly even and indication of what is wrong with it before you start the service.
When it comes to regulation - feedback is instant and you'll also love getting the Beat Error down to 0.0ms or as close as possible. Then you can crack on with another watch whilst you leave this on test, checking all positions etc
 

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Just regulate it in 2 positions ;
1/ dial up and 2/ crown down - they're the two positions that people have their watch in most.
It's all I do (on the Timegrapher) for clients watches and I don't get complaints:)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hey hey! I've been keeping up with all the replies to this post and I wanted to say thanks and also offer an update.

Ok, so while I have been looking at the hairsprings through all of this it was only last week that I really started to learn about them and break down how they can affect things. The watch that was giving me the biggest headache (the one that prompted this post) had a misaligned hairspring. I didn't know until now what a HUGE difference a tiny amount of misalignment on the hairspring can make. Rather than try shifting it, I replaced the whole balance assembly with one from a 7S36A. Guess what.... problem solved. Problem VERY solved, no appreciable loss/gain of time in two days!! Amplitude is right up there... and.... longer power reserve!! So now I know to pay much closer attention to the hairspring and all facets of it.

And Tom you are right about the timegrapher... Had I not WASTED $300.00 on a small chinese lathe I thought I could use to make bezels (no I can't.....) I would have ordered one in two weeks ago. So, I paid the .99c for a copy of wildspectra, learned about it and built a contact mic from dollar store items. This small small investment has let me set the beat rate if it's out, as well as time the watch (granted, only in one postion till I build another mic, but it helps). That alone has made a great difference in many of my watches. Next of course will be to revisit the hairpsprings in a few of them now that I have some clue of what I am looking for.

And of course, I still wear the watch for a while and make fine adjustments to the timing based on what it does on my wrist. And the binary thing is just what I have been doing! I spread it out over days, but it works to narrow things down. Except beat error, but I have the wildspectra solution for that now.

Thanks guys!!!
 

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In 99.9% of cases, the hairspring must be adjusted for the watch to run properly. This cannot be done properly without training, and they are very easy to destroy. They must be centred, they must have the correct pinning point, the centre of the terminal coil must pass exactly between the regulating pins, and the pins must be adjusted also. They also must be perfectly flat, and perfectly concentric, and de-magnetized ALWAYS before any analysis. We spent months doing this in school, all day every day.
The timing machine will tell you your amplitude, will hear unwanted noise from other parts of the watch, show you if any wheel is out of round or has a bent pivot. It will show exactly what the watch is doing in all positions, and the beat error. With a beat error larger than .5 ms, it is difficult to get a good result. The timing machine does all this in seconds, and you can close your case, and be on your way.
The regulator pointer on the balance cock is not an absolute; it hardly ever resides exactly in the centre of the scale.
The majority of Seiko autos have a surprising low amplitude, even when new.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
In 99.9% of cases, the hairspring must be adjusted for the watch to run properly. This cannot be done properly without training, and they are very easy to destroy. They must be centred, they must have the correct pinning point, the centre of the terminal coil must pass exactly between the regulating pins, and the pins must be adjusted also. They also must be perfectly flat, and perfectly concentric, and de-magnetized ALWAYS before any analysis. We spent months doing this in school, all day every day.
The timing machine will tell you your amplitude, will hear unwanted noise from other parts of the watch, show you if any wheel is out of round or has a bent pivot. It will show exactly what the watch is doing in all positions, and the beat error. With a beat error larger than .5 ms, it is difficult to get a good result. The timing machine does all this in seconds, and you can close your case, and be on your way.
The regulator pointer on the balance cock is not an absolute; it hardly ever resides exactly in the centre of the scale.
The majority of Seiko autos have a surprising low amplitude, even when new.
So I shouldn't be twiddling them back into shape by eye with tweezers then? I also demagnetize as matter of course, so at least I have that covered. I mean, I've had luck so far but these extra like the pins and so forth you speak of, well, I got no idea... that might explain a lot. Thanks for the tip.

Also, I'm in Niagara too. You mean Ontario right? We might be the only two guys in this part of the province, I sure haven't met any other hobbyists local, let alone an actual watchmaker. Except for a sign I saw on Facer street, but I think it was from the 60's.

Thanks for the advice.
 
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