The Watch Site banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So this will be the second watch I've worked on. Here goes....


I bought a "junk article" - "please refrain from the bid of nervous person". Unable to refrain, I nervously placed a bid.... It arrived today.


200mPackage.jpg


I unpacked it and took a look.... Pretty good!


200mShot1.jpg


Bezel insert is great, case is great, crystal is great, dial looks great... Signs of trouble: a suspicious "water mark" on the inside of the crystal and the hands look a little funky...


200mShot2.jpg


Strap is a GL83122 and has a split in it....


200mStrap2.jpg


200mStrap1.jpg


Caseback looks good and shows that it was born in 1984...


200mCaseback.jpg


Crown screws out beautifully, day and date adjust crisply, and ..... uh oh ...second sign of trouble.... When I adjusted the time, the hour hand and second hand move as if fused together. Rust? Corrosion?


200mHands.jpg


I removed the back and found a service mark. I don't know if there is a widely used code or not (?) but my guess is that this mark is from a battery change in 1998.....


200mServiceM.jpg


Everything inside looks virtually brand new. Coil looks awesome. Screw heads are perfect. Text all looks great. The only item not bright and shiny is the battery strap...looks like a smudge on it....


200mMovement.jpg


I removed the battery and there is no sign of leakage to my eye! Good news...but I wonder what's got the hands stuck together....


200mBattery.jpg


So, my plan of attack will be to disassemble the watch. I'll figure out what's going on with the hands/cannon pinion/center wheel. The watch looks so good that I'm hoping I'll be able to clean or replace the rusty/corroded parts and reassemble the watch. At this point, I can't see any reason why the electronics wouldn't work, so I'm guessing that a battery will get it running once the hands move freely.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
392 Posts
Nice pickup. The case is in pretty good condition also.

Hopefully you will be able to get it going again and the hands look like they will come up nicely once relumed.

I'm interested to see whether you can find where the water managed to get in from as the movement appears to have come through unscathed as did the dial.

Looking forward to your updates.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Source for Gaskets?

I guess this question is mostly for the members in the USA: where do you buy your gaskets? I'm looking for the set of 3: crown, case back, and bezel.... I have the part numbers, i think: 0K0240B0A, 0C3060B0A, and 0C3660B02.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
If you have the part numbers, you can call Otto Frei; I've had success getting Seiko gaskets from them. I've also used Jules Borel. They have a good website where you can look up part numbers if you don't already have them, and then you can search their main site to see stock and pricing.

Like this:

go to http://cgi.julesborel.com/ and enter SEK CS#7548-7010 in the search field
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thank you Mark and Bry. I'll check out Otto Frei and the Jules Borel website. Bry, I'll PM you back.


From what I've read on this forum, it looks like replacing the crown seal is a potentially frustrating task.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Disassembly...

I had to wait until I got a better screwdriver...the one I had been using was just a bit too big for some of the screws in this watch...


I think the dial looks awesome. There are some odd marks trailing from the 11 and 10 markers. They look like they are from the original assembly process to me. They appear to be a clear product like glue or something. They both go in exactly the same direction almost as if it was done while the dial was moving through an assembly process.... I don't know.


200mDial.jpg


I'm a fan of white hands on these black and white dials so I'm thinking of putting these original hands in storage and just installing a set of Harold's white hands of the same type....


The circuit looks clean and free of corrosion on the underside....


200mCircuit.jpg


Taking the movement apart... It all looks very shiny and clean to me but I have pretty weak magnification....


200mDateside.jpg


Here's one of the offending parts. The center wheel is stuck to the cannon pinion but looks clean otherwise....


200mTrainside.jpg


Here they are. I can see a bit of rust inside the cannon pinion even with my terrible magnification...


CannonCenter.jpg


When I put them together they do not turn independently. I assume they should - seconds and minutes - so this is the sign of the symptom that I saw when trying to set the time. The seconds and minutes fused together.


Together.jpg


Question for the more experienced out there: would you clean these or replace them? I'd hate to put it all back together and then have it not run well....



I'm guessing that you would clean them. If so, would you just do a "normal" cleaning or is there a rust removal process first?


I'm guessing that if, once cleaned, they fit together and turn independently of one another and smoothly, then it would be safe to assume that they will work properly in the watch?


Thanks for any input.


(I got a seal set from Bry...I'll try to replace the crown seal while I'm getting ready for cleaning up these parts...)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Crown Seal (7548/6309..)

I tackled the crown seal. I've read that it is tricky so I was a bit nervous.


I managed to get the old one out. I used a small 0.8mm screwdriver to grab it and pull it out of it's groove. Even then it was tricky to get it out of the crown. I used a straight pin to hook it and pull it out. You can see the old one on the left and the new one on the right.


CrownSealOut.jpg


Yep, the new one will be a tight fit.


TightFit.jpg


I got the new one in. It is noticeably more snug on the crown tube - feels right.



CrownSealIn.jpg


You can see some black smudgy gook on my work surface in this picture. That is the stuff left by the old crown seal rubber breaking down. I don't know where water originally got into this watch but maybe through the crown seal.


The "method" I found that worked to get the new seal in was this: I put the new seal into the crown. Of course it folded into the narrow middle portion of the crown and went beyond the groove that I wanted it to go into. I used that same 0.8mm screwdriver to gently push the seal into the groove. Of course I was pushing the "top" or near end of the seal into the groove. Doing so basically pulled the "bottom" or far end of the seal into position in the groove just because of it's desire to return to its round shape. This worked pretty well and only took a minute or so once I began trying it that way. I screwed it onto the case/crown tube to seat it and make sure it was correctly in position.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,581 Posts
I can't see from your pics, but check the centre wheel is rust free and clean with no wear, same for the cp. It should be a fairly tight fit with a satisfying click into place when you press the CP over the centre wheel when commencing dial side.

If there is any doubt on the part and you have a replacement, then use those. The CP shouldn't be too light and easy to rotate as it may not have enough friction for consistent rotation with the centre wheel, nor will it be able to overcome rotation of the minute wheel which advances the hour wheel which advances the intermediate date driving wheel and the date driving wheel itself. Added to this friction is pushing the date wheel around over the jumper for date change, meaning the watch will continue ticking but the h and m hands will likely stall between 10pm and date change. Too tight and you will find the hands very tough to set so you should get a feel for it based on experience.

Oil use 9010 outside of the CP for the hour wheel, and on the centre wheel a fairly high pressure grease like 8217 or 9504 is what I tend to use.

Well done on the crown, used to find them a nightmare but can sort them in a matter of a minute or two. It is a good idea to give the crown a thorough clean once the gasket is out. I sometimes test the strength of the male stem using a pin vice to see if I can loosen it easily. If not I leave it, and the worst thing to happen is to find it shears inside the base of the crown...so only gently test if you think it is likely best to remove, clean, add thread lock and screw back in place if you feel it is loose or experience that in future.

Opening or pinching the canon pinion is something one may need to do but you need the right tools to do so, often I've not found it to be an issue but too much friction and you are able to back hack (auto/mech movement). For me I imagine it will be fine to use aslong as there is no rust or pitting or roughness to the CP and CW.
Use a very small amount of 9104 or 9010 on the centre wheel upper side for the centre wheel bridge.
http://blog.watchdoctor.biz/2018/02/11/what-is-a-cannon-pinion/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Hey, Guy. Thanks for the information - and that's a good link to the cannon pinion article.



My problem would definitely seem to be too tight rather than too loose. I think you are saying that once the parts are cleaned up they should fit snugly and during normal operations they only move independently of each other when setting the watch. This means that once cleaned, the center wheel should move within the cannon pinion but only with some effort. (As they are now they really lock together when assembled.)



Do I have this right?: The second hand attaches to the end of the fourth wheel pinion which runs through the center wheel. The minute hand attaches to the cannon pinion. The hour hand attaches to the hour wheel.


If I've got that right, then it would seem that on this watch the only parts that may have gotten some rust on them would be the very tip of the fourth wheel pinion, the center wheel, and the cannon pinion. Would you expect a normal cleaning to get the rust? I was wondering if I should use a rust buster first like WD-40 and then do a normal cleaning..... (I'm wincing as I write WD-40 on a watch forum...)



I was afraid to try to remove the male stem from the crown because I didn't want to risk it breaking... I did give it a slight twist just to make sure it wasn't really loose but it seemed very well attached and I wanted to leave it alone. The seal set that Bry sent had 3 crown seals in it and I was glad because that gave me the courage to try knowing I had some spares. I wound up wrecking one along the way so I still have one more extra.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Assembly....

So, I cleaned up the parts and decided to put it back together. I'd like to see if the movement runs and if I have to disassemble to replace the fourth wheel (which I think I might....) at least I'm getting good practice with the process....


Center wheel and bridge in place...


Assem1.jpg

Fifth, third, and fourth wheel in place along with the second setting lever...

Assem2.jpg

The third wheel bridge...That was fiddly...

Assem3.jpg


The coil and anti-magnetic shield.....

Assem4.jpg

The circuit block...At this point I put a battery in to see if the movement would run. At first it didn't and I questioned myself about the third wheel bridge positioning...I nudged the gears and it started running. So at least the coil and circuit is good. Not sure how well it will run, yet, but it's alive.

Assem5.jpg

Got started on the other side....

Assem6.jpg


Date wheel in.....


Assem7.jpg

Dial guards in. Those tiny screws were the ones that made me buy a new screwdriver before I got started.

Assem8.jpg

Day wheel and dial back in place. In this picture you can see the stuff that I mentioned near the 11, 10, 9, 8, and even 5. It's clear and in this picture has caught the light so it shines a bit. I wonder if it was some kind of "fixer" that Seiko put over the lume dots or something. It looks to me like it got there when the dial was made.

Assem9.jpg

Now I just have to figure out what to do about the hands. Actually, I think I'll have to replace the fourth wheel first (I'll explain in a follow up post), then figure out what to do about the hands. I think it will be a real looker when it's done though. All the cosmetic bits are in great shape....

Assem10.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Hands show Fourth Wheel trouble....

So, the hands that came with this watch are in OK condition.... I don't know how to do it, but I'm sure they can be cleaned up and re-lumed and will look great.
Fronthand.jpg
The attachment points of the hour and minute hands are clean.
I'm afraid I can see a piece of the fourth wheel still stuck in the second hand, though....I'd like to get the opinion of the forum, though. Is that part of the fourth wheel pinion rusted and broken off in the second hand?

Backhand.jpg
Oh well, I'll get to take it apart and replace that fourth wheel.....


Anyone have a spare fourth wheel or just the mechanical parts of a 754x movement for sale?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,581 Posts
Looks indeed from the fairly grainy pic that there is a piece of the fourth wheel staff that has broken inside the ,what should be, hollow second hand pipe.

I had this happen the other day but further in the pipe....annoying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Yes. Quite annoying.

I have also been able to compare my fourth wheel to a picture of one and mine definitely appears to be shorter.....
I can buy and replace the fourth wheel part but how should I go about getting that piece of the old one out of the second hand? I'll try a tiny drop of penetrating oil to break down the rust and then try to pull it out with tweezers.


I wonder if this watch didn't suffer from true water intrusion but instead was stored with the crown pulled out and got some humidity inside it. Now that I've had it apart, it appears that the only area that was not pristine was the hands and this point where the second hand attaches....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Salvage Yard Fourth Wheel and Pinion

Warning: This post contains images that may be disturbing to some (Pulsar owning) viewers.

Well, I needed a fourth wheel and pinion to make it work. I looked online for some options and found that some Pulsar movements used the same fourth wheel. Specifically, the Y510, -12, -13, and -14. I found a running one for sale and bought it. It was cheaper than buying just the fourth wheel from an online vendor.
PulsarFront.jpg
It arrived and was in decent shape and it was running with a "fresh battery". I got sad immediately but hardened my resolve....
PulsarBack.jpg
It's a Y513-8149 and came on a Speidel bracelet.
MvtCompare.jpg
Comparing the Y513 to the 7548, you can see the similarity. Really, the only difference at this point is the different circuit block design and the number of jewels. I suspect that the circuit block is identical in function.
CircuitOff.jpg
The mechanical parts are nearly identical, too. Obviously, fewer jewels on the Pulsar.
3WheelBridge.jpg
With the Third Wheel Bridge removed, I can see the part I'm after. Looks identical so far......
4WheelCompare.jpg
Here they are - the Seiko on the left and the Pulsar on the right. Still looking good....
PinioinCompare.jpg
Here you can really see the problem with my original part. Seiko on the right and Pulsar on the left. The end of the Seiko pinion is gone. Actually, it's not gone, it's just fused into the second hand...... The end of the pinion steps down in thickness and that narrower part seems to be what rusted into the second hand....


So, I cleaned the donor part, put a micro-dab of oil on the "bushing" on the pinion that centers it in the center wheel, and installed it. That Third Wheel Bridge is really fiddly but I finally got it buttoned up. I put a battery in and it started ticking away so I must have gotten everything into place.


Now I just have to sort out the hands and this one will be wearable...In this final picture, you can see the tip of the fourth wheel pinion shining in the light......
4WheelPeek.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Good News!....and Bad News.

Good News:
The donor fourth wheel and pinion allowed me to put hands on the watch.

The original hands for this watch need to be restored and I need to learn how to do that. For now, I put on a set of aftermarket hands from Yobokies. I think they look good even though not original. I like white hands with these black and white dials. Also, the appearance of these white hands with the slightly not-white lume actually matches the original indices quite well.
200mHandsOn.jpg
I put an Uncle Seiko strap on it and put the original hardware from the GL831 strap on the Uncle Seiko strap. Looks pretty good and is very comfortable. The original Seiko hardware feels more robust - especially the thingy that goes through the hole on the strap. So this is what it will look like when done:

200mStrapOn.jpg
Bad News:
Not running well. When I got the hands on, I had to push start it a few times but it got going. Then, even when running, it would stop occasionally and the second hand would just pulse. It was not a brand new battery, but I suspect that if everything was as it should be other than the battery then it would just go into low battery mode and advance every 2 seconds.
It was relatively easy to replace the fourth wheel because it did not require getting into the calendar side at all and only a partial disassembly of the motion side. My plan is to tear down the whole thing again and this time replace the center wheel and the cannon pinion using parts from the (previously running) donor watch. I can see that the top face of the original cannon pinion is discolored from rust in the same way that the broken end of the fourth wheel pinion was. My hope is that the new parts will work and that will be job done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Maybe done with this one for now?....

Here we go again. At least I'm getting better at this movement....
200mAgain.jpg
I stripped the calendar side this far down.....
200mCalStrip.jpg
and the motion side this far down....
200mMotionStrip.jpg
I compared the parts in question. Even in my low-res pictures, you can see the original cannon pinion doesn't look good. The top edge where the minute hand mounts is pitted from the rust. I could also see that it wasn't perfectly round and smooth on the inside - obviously a problem. I plan to use the donor center wheel, cannon pinion, hour wheel, and fourth wheel and pinion since all those parts were running well together in the donor watch.
200mPartsCompare.jpg
Going back together....
200mGoingTogether.jpg
And running again.

200mRunning.jpg
I will say that this time the movement was easier to get going - a lot less push starting involved. Hopefully that's a good sign. I put in a truly fresh battery, too.
The watch gods must me smiling on me because I somehow managed to get the seconds hand striking the markers dead on!
I'm just going to wear it like this for awhile and see how it runs....
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top