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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter #1
Several years ago while still wet behind the WIS ears I was searching for my long time favorite watch, A yellow dial 6139-6005, which I'd like to think, is still misplaced. It was a Seiko I bought brand new back in 76'. I was searching the web for a replacement and it didn't take long to find a nice blue dial version which, as it turned out, was all original and in pretty decent shape. After acquiring it and bringing back memories on how Great a watch it was I couldn't help but continue the search for the Yellow dial version. I finally came across what appeared to be an example in decent shape, bit the bullet, and hit the "buy it now" for a rather healthy sum. The watch arrived and was a Beauty, or so I thought at the time, but as time went on and I learned more and more about 6139's I discovered a few things didn't add up. The dial was a "Proof" dial but the movement was a "B" movement. The case wasn't notched by the crown. It had no two piece second hand and the case back dated to 76'. Having a closer look at the dial I noticed a ring around the sub dial. I'm not talking about the discoloration that occurs on some but an actual ring. I came to the conclusion, although it looked good, that the dial was Aftermarket. I haven't seen to many of these but they do show up from time to time.

Here is a photo of the watch in question:



I recently ran across this one currently up for bids. Same dial, same ring around the sub dial, and same "weak" Proof font.



I'm still convinced it's aftermarket. What say you??
 

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I have to agree with you the sub dial does not match any of my currant (or flipped) 600X's also the gold colour makes me uneasy but I could be wrong on that point because some are quite deep copper gold colour.

It might prove more conclusive if you take the dial off and have a look at its back side :)
 

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just did a quick google search and checked mine out and it seems the vast majority do have the indented circle rather than the ring. But, found a post on watchuseek that the poster claims to have purchased in the 70's and definetly does have the ring.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/qu...9-6005-vintage-chronograph-1975-a-637753.html

Could be that your dial is the real deal..........


edit...just studied the photo in my link on my desktop and might not be a ring after all..........??

bill
 

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Craftsman
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I've been asked a few times about these and I'm of the opinion they're fake. I think the only conclusive way I could tell is if I had one in for service. I could then check the back of the dial and see what the construction's like, what the materials are, what markings are on it and compare it to one one my genuine dials. I've never seen a fake dial where they've also bothered to fake the back.
 

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Be interesting to know how close those two watches are in production dates. Paint batches change colour. No expert but all the positioning of marks, letters and indices are the same as on a known genuine dial. Also I have had one dial that was changing colour due to oxidation. These paints are translucent not solid. If some thing funky is going on with the dial beneath the paint it will show through. Looks a bit uniform for that being the case but just another option from a guy who worked with paint for many years.
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter #6
Interestingly enough, the second photo of the watch up for bids shows a case back from 76' as mine did. It's definitely a mismatch.



I agree about removing the dial to check it for authenticity but since mine has moved on some time ago, sold with disclosure of course, I can't check it. It would be really be sad at this point if it was Original and I let it go........lol. I did break even on it which made me feel better.

I was able to compare it close up to a blue dial proof I have along with a project yellow dial proof and the Water70Mproof font just didn't look the same. I based my conclusions of it being aftermarket on the ring around the sub dial, the proof font, and the deeper gold color which just stands out too much next to the yellow inner bezel.
 

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I agree about removing the dial to check it for authenticity but since mine has moved on some time ago, sold with disclosure of course, I can't check it. It would be really be sad at this point if it was Original and I let it go........lol. I did break even on it which made me feel better.
Well a funny coincidence....you sure that person hasn't tried to slip it out onto eBay for a tidy profit?

But yeah that has to be fake...
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter #8
Well a funny coincidence....you sure that person hasn't tried to slip it out onto eBay for a tidy profit?

But yeah that has to be fake...
I'm searching for a case back photo of mine but have yet to find it. My photos span 3 different computers....lol

The inner bezel is a different shade of yellow but someone could have changed it for a closer match to the dial.
 

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Speaking only about the coppery cast to the dial (not the overall authenticity) I can say I have a Feb 1970 proof/proof in a notched case that I just went and looked at, and the dial has a much more coppery look to it than some of my other golden 6139. I'd suspect it's dial, other than the fact it's got definite 'age' on it elsewhere, so unless someone in the early 70's was knocking these off (I doubt that give original replacements would have been available then), I'm supporting the contention that some (not all) of the deeper golden (coppery) dials can be non-fakes.

Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of fakes with overly golden dials, but the mere existence of a darker golden dial shouldn't be the nail in the coffin.
 

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Speaking only about the coppery cast to the dial (not the overall authenticity) I can say I have a Feb 1970 proof/proof in a notched case that I just went and looked at, and the dial has a much more coppery look to it than some of my other golden 6139. I'd suspect it's dial, other than the fact it's got definite 'age' on it elsewhere, so unless someone in the early 70's was knocking these off (I doubt that give original replacements would have been available then), I'm supporting the contention that some (not all) of the deeper golden (coppery) dials can be non-fakes.

Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of fakes with overly golden dials, but the mere existence of a darker golden dial shouldn't be the nail in the coffin.
For sure that is a fair point.
Is yours the R dial or the T dial. The R's are generally more golden and the T's more yellow.
 

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For what it's worth, a guy I bought a watch from last year showed me his Pogue that he claimed he purchased new somewhere in Asia (forget where) back in the 70's. It had the same coppery dial AND a black inner bezel ring. He was adamant it was original.

Like most things made back in the 70's manufacturing tolerances didn't seem to be that tight. Also the day of the week it was made probably affected the outcome. Monday vs Friday evening when the Sapporo was flowing ;-)
 

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For what it's worth, a guy I bought a watch from last year showed me his Pogue that he claimed he purchased new somewhere in Asia (forget where) back in the 70's. It had the same coppery dial AND a black inner bezel ring. He was adamant it was original.
There's a few of 'that' model on that online auction website this week :rolleyes:

It's nice to know there were some aftermarket proof dials made. It'll make us look a bit harder before whacking that buy-it-now button :) All the proof 'T' dials I have seen have had the split seconds hand and the 6139A movement not the B movement. Also watch out for cases where the cutout above the winder doesn't look right. I've seen a couple of fleabuy that were obviously badly filed out at home using a rusty old vice and a wrong shaped file.

Dodgy gits!

I have a 'R' dial yellow watch here and the dial colour is lovely. It isn't as yellow as the 'T' dial version I posted above but still the watch looks spot on. I can't put a photo here as I've got it up for sale and it's against forum rules I am reliably informed.
 

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I have a 6139-6002 with a black rotating indicator wheel and dark/copper dial. They are pukka and common in some region, can not remember which. I bought a battered to death one a couple of years ago and stripped the batter off it:)
 

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This is my 1975 'R' dial. I can show it now as I have withdrawn it from sale on the website. Such a nice watch too hard to sell!

 
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