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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello!

I hope this helps someone aswell as me!

Please feel free to lambast me and wince and so on as I go through this. I took these pictures to help me out with the process but also to see if it would help anyone else out there attempting to tinker with their 6119, or indeed any 6 series or 7 series caliber as there are of course some similarities. I've had this 6119-8160 for while and it's been very slow and sometimes would stop, so with my 7002A fix going better than I thought, I decided to tackle this, but take more detailed photos along the way.

The 6119B caliber is a 21 jewel, 21,600 beat, day date with quick set date movement based on the 6106A caliber. There are three variants of of the 6119; A, B and C. The C version differs from the B in that it incorporates a quick set day and date feature.


I'll start with the dissassembly and over the next two posts I'll go through how I cleaned and lubricated the mainspring and barrel on to reassembling, with some details on lubrication.

I'm wanting this to be helpful, but I also want to hear opinions on what I may be doing wrong or could do better, or simply a different method or technique.
I also have some questions if anyone can help!

:)

NOTE: Before tackling anything on the calendar side it's recommended to complete the first few steps of disassembly as detailed in the next post up to the point at which the balance is removed.

The reason being is that the balance assembly is best removed from the area of work to avoid any possible damage in the event of a slip or accident. I use a balance tack to rest the balance cock with the balance facing upwards and sitting in its jewel, and protected under a dust cover.

SEIKO 6119B Disassembly

With the movement out of the case and the dial and hands removed - the dial on this movement is fixed with two small dial screws around the side that provide friction against the dial feet to keep dial in place, loosen the screws but don't remove them- I will start on the calendar side.

Using a small screwdriver I gently pry up the snap ring clear of the hour wheel. The snap will often have a small cutout for you to lever the edge of the driver but I prefer to place it gently in-between the gap of the clip and with a driver that's just slightly wider, gentle tilt back and forth and the snap will want to climb the hour wheel to become loose enough to remove with tweezers.


Remove the day wheel with a tip of rodico and it will come away easily.



Unscrew the three screws as seen in the picture below to remove the date dial guard.





Remove the date corrector (pictured below) carefully by first freeing it's grip away from the date wheel teeth and remove them both.




Remove the hour wheel. It will easily lift clear with a gentle but vertical grip of your tweezers.




And unscrew then remove the shifting mechanism as follows.





Remove the setting lever.





Remove the stem and clutch and the date change lever.



Remove the minute and setting wheels. As you go, inspection is required on each part to be aware of any particular dirt or rust, or indeed broken pinions and damage.



Remove the date driving wheel assembly. Notice the orientation of finger plate and the countersink for the screw. The small post on the date wheel with the spring loaded attachment fits inside the slot on the finger upon reassembly.



Remove the canon pinion and date corrector spring and date corrector. These are high friction parts and the canon pinion needs great care to be taken on removal. The pinion snaps into place upon reassembly and it's fir this reason that it's difficult to remove. I recommend, and would like to own, a cannon pinion removal tool that resemble the hand pullers, but I give a gentle grip with some brass tweezers and lift firmly but slowly vertically. The date corrector spring is also firmly set in place. Loosen the screw and inspect the mechanism, allowing you to slide the spring under and out from the date corrector.





With all parts removed, make sure you retain the parts in relationship to their screws and flow of disassembly to aid the reassembly process.
Next up we will flip the movement over and make a start in the motion side.

 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Before tackling anything on the calendar side it's recommended to complete these next two steps first and foremost. The reason being is that the balance wheel is best left to rest and be free from the area of work to avoid any possible damage in the event if a slip or accident. That won't happen to you, though! I use a balance tack to rest the balance and balance bridge upon and protect under a dust cover.



Remove the oscillating weight..I'd recommend a 3mm screwdriver here as a lesser sized driver may not give enough purchase on the oscillating weight screw and damage may be done to the screw or a slip might occur. Take time to remove all parts carefully and store them in relation to their screws and in the order they were removed.



Remove the automatic framework by unscrewing the three small screws and gently lever the plate upwards to then remove with tweezers. On any bridge that you uninstall it's a good idea to inspect the screws and maintain the order they were removed. This is because on some movements a bridge may have variations in screw sizes. A drawing would have been done and the screws outlined to show which went where, but with digital photography just a smart phone away, catalogue the pictures in detail to avoid confusion down the line.





Remove the balance complete. Unscrew the balance cock/bridge and set the screw to one side. Gently fit a screwdriver blade under the balance cock to pry it off the posts. Taking extra care and time to do this, the next step is to lift the balance wheel slightly so it's free from the pallet fork. This should then allow you to grip the bridge with tweezers and lift the assembly free from the movement. Avoid suspending the balance for too long, and place it with the wheel facing upwards and the pivot back in its jewel. Store away under cover held on a balance tack or on its own in a compartment. Don't forget to keep the screw with the balance but avoid them contacting each other.




Now we have removed the balance assembly it's time to allow the mainspring to unwind slowly, insuring that any remaining power is released so that the train wheels don't spin out of control as a result of removing the pallet fork and bridge. Instead we want to keep the barrel and train wheels locked by the pallet remaining in situ and allow the power out via the ratchet wheel attached to the mainspring via the barrel arbor.

Using a suitable screwdriver for the ratchet wheel screw, - some use pegwood and apply friction to the ratchet - hold the driver upright on the ratchet wheel screw and grip firmly. Get used to the grip needed to maintain this driver in place as the next step is to turn the driver to pull the click spring free from the ratchet wheel teeth with some soft tweezers or pegwood. Do this momentarily to gauge the grip required and to get used to the action involved. The ratchet is directly fixed to the mainspring barrel arbor and it's this energy we need to allow to dissipate through our fingers that hold the driver. I'm right handed and I therfore use the driver in my left hand with my forefinger on the driver head and my thumb and middle finger to control the spinning motion transmitted to the driver from the ratchet.

With my right hand I gently pry the click spring free from the ratchet wheel teeth. At this point your left hand will feel the force of the mainspring trying to twist the driver anticlockwise. If at any point you feel your grip is failing, your focus should be split between releasing the click spring so as to act as a brake and maintaining the grip on the driver and ratchet screw to slow the flow. It's this process that I follow, and taking your time to allow the spring to unwind slowly is extremely important. What can happen otherwise is that your screwdriver will slip, the click spring won't catch the ratchet quickly and the spring will unwind and possibly snap or contort. The train wheels will receive a lot of force from the barrel as it wants to rotate that it could damage pivots, snap pivots, crack jewels and break or bend train wheels and their teeth. If the pallet fork was removed the barrel will unwind naturally and you'll have the sound of an electric motor whirring away. No, that is the sound of the train wheels about to take off...

Unscrew and remove the ratchet wheel once the mainspring is fully unwound.



Remove the train bridge. Unscrew the screws, inspecting for damage or size differences and maintaining the relationship with the bridge when stored. Gently lever the train and barrel bridge from the movement, avoid sudden moves. Avoid dropping or sliding the plate. Once it is free, lift vertically and away from the movement to be stored. Inspect the jewels for dirt and damage.




Remove the fourth wheel. Gently grip with soft tweezers and lift vertically, slowly.



Remove the third wheel. Lift vertically, slowly and carefully with soft tweezers.




Remove the pallet bridge and fork. Unscrew the pallet bride whilst maintaining pressure with tweezers or pegwood to avoid any damage to the pallet fork pivots. Lift the pallet bridge carefully away from the area and slowly tweezer the pallet free from the movement, avoiding touching or scraping the pivots and jewel stones.




Remove the click spring. Unscrew and lift vertically.




Remove the escape wheel carefully.



Remove the centre wheel bridge. Unscrew the screws and gently lever the plate upwards where it sits on its pillars. Doing this carefully will leave you in a position to lift the centre wheel bridge up and away from the mainplate, leaving the centre wheel on show.




Remove the mainspring barrel and centre wheel.




And the motion side is completely dissassembled.




Fit the balance complete ready for cleaning in the ultrasonic or clean independently in some 'one-dip; equivalent. I install the balance and put it through the cleaning process of lighter fluid but remove the diashock for separate cleaning. Removing it again afterwards from the plate and then a quick dip in perklone where I then quickly dry with a blower to remove any residue.



Dismantle the automatic framework mechanism as shown below by removing the two small screws.




Next up is cleaning the mainspring barrel and how I did it. With all the parts of the calendar and motion side ready for cleaning. Inspect the bridges for jewel damage, wear and dirt. Inspect train wheel pivots for wear, broken teeth, for dirt and any other imperfections like bends or kinks. Inspect the arbor bushing and jewels for damage, wear and dirt.


 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)

Mainspring Disassembly and Assembly.






Press down carefully with your thumbnails on the teeth of the mainspring barrel - on a soft surface like a movement cushion - and the barrel lid will pop off from the upwards force of the barrel arbour.



Hold the barrel in your thumb and forefinger and gently reverse the barrel arbour against the wind to free it from the mainspring, lift carefully but surely whilst holding the majority of the spring with some plastic tweezers so the spring doesn't pop out!



With some finger cots, hold the spring allowing enough room for the fuirst few coils to be free enough to be lifted out of the barrel with some soft tweezers. Lifting vertically once the inner coils release the spring will want to fully unwind and fly away. Hold tight and allow the spring to uncoil by alternating your grip either side.



Once the spring is free (careful at the end as it will still want to fly away) make sure to lay it flat and check for breaks and kinks. Any kinks or of course breaks then the mainspring will need replacing.



With a cotton tip, drop a dab of lighter fluid onto the tip and clean most of the gunk away before going in the ultrasonic.



Yuck!



Again with some lighter fluid, dab a small amount on a folded piece of watchmakers paper and carefully run the spring through the fold.




Urrghh! :)



Once the barrel is cleaned thoroughly, apply some Moebius 8217 (or your preference, tips please! :) ) braking grease to the barrel wall.



With the same method used for cleaning the spring, apply some Moebius 8141 (tips please, 8301 now recommended) to the fold and coat the spring by running it through your grip.



Follow this up with a clean piece of paper and that should leave enough grease on the mainspring.

Make sure to place the spring back in the barrel by curving and holding the end of the spring tightly against the wall, winding it concentrically back in carefully using the same method as the removal.



On a soft surface, place the barrel arbour into the centre of the spring and find the exit, rotate with some soft tweezers gently pressing down and the arbour should sit within the inner coil of the spring. Check the wind by rotating the arbour to see if it catches the spring's hook.



Place the barrel lid back on and grip firmly with some soft tweezers. Rotate the barrel through 90 degrees to make sure the lid is closed tight.



Next up, assembly.

 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Assembly

Mainplate cleaned after checking for any remaining dirt and using pegwood to clean out jewel holes.



Starting on the calendar side, insert the stem and clutch after lubricating. I used Moebius 9104 for posts and spring or setting contact areas, and also the stem and clutch.



Lurbicate the setting spring's contact area lightly and install the setting lever.



Screw down the setting lever spring and lubricate the contact area lightly.
Install the day corrector and day corrector spring.



Install the date jumper. Lubricate the post and raised platform the gear sits on very lightly.



Install the setting wheel and minute wheel, lubricate posts lightly. Install the minute wheel bridge and the day finger.





Swap the movement over and start on the motion side.



Install the centre wheel and mainspring barrel. I lubricated the barrel arbour port and the centre wheel with 9104. (Advise please!:))
I also lubrictated the arbour with tiny amount of 9010


Install the escape wheel. Lubricate the jewel with Moebius 9010 later on.



Install the centre wheel bridge.


Install the third wheel and the fourth wheel. Lurbicate the notch on the stem of the fourth wheel with Moebius 9010. The third wheel jewel will lurbicated with 9104.



Install the train wheel bridge. Before screwing tightly, check for the motion of the train wheels. If not running smoothly, lift the train bridge and replace. When screwing down the train bridge hold some brass tweezers on the bridge to stop any slips. Remove the diafix and lubricate the jewels on the train bridge with Moebius 9010 for the escape wheel, and as mentioned 9104 for the third wheel.



Install the click spring and the ratchet wheel. Hold the mainspring barrel in place to tighten the ratchet wheel screw.
Install the pallett fork and bridge. Do not lubricate the pallet jewel pivot holes. The stones should be lubricated with Moebius 941/2. This can be done dynamically through the holes on the calendar side of the mainplate, or lightly on the stones themselves. The stones and escape wheel I've heard are recommended to be dipped in fixodrop which will keep the oil in place on the escape wheel teeth and the pallet fork jewel stones. I haven't don't this here and I'm not sure it's a must. Will attempt this down the line when I've read a little more into it.



Wind the mainspring half a turn and gently check the pallett fork to see if it wants to flick from side to side. Gently nudge the fork with an oiler or small screwdriver. Be careful, but the pallet should have enough energy provided by the train to make it want to flick from side to side.

Turn the movement over and continue with the calendar side. Install the cannon pinion over the centre wheel, lurbicate the centre wheel with 9104 lightly before installing the canon pinion over it. Install the date finger assembly and screw down. Install the intermediate date wheel. Lubricate their posts lightly with 9104.



Install the date wheel. Lurbicate the teeth of the date wheel very lightly with 9010. Gently nudge the date jumper away from the date wheel teeth and rotate the date wheel so it sits flat and against the jumper, not on top of it.




Install the date dial guard.



Install the day wheel and day snap (curveed side down) and check the operation of the date and day function.



Assemble the automatic framework mechanism and lubricate the transmission wheel teeth and the pawl lever jewel.



Turn the movement back over and install the automatic framework device and install the balance complete. Lower the balance onto the mainplate carefully and orientate the balance in the direction the pallet fork is facing. If the fork had ticked to one side, start the positioning of the balance further to the side the fork faces. Find the balane staff pivot hole whilst positioning the cock on the mainplate. As the balance wants to turn to face the pallet and the balance bridge/cock is positioned the balance will start oscillating. Remove the diashock spring by rotating each tab free of the slot. I twist the spring with my tweezers and in combination rotate the entire movement with the tweezers in place and I find this rotates the spring free.

Remove the cap jewel and oil it with Moebius 9010. An are of about a third to 50% in the centre of the cap jewel is enough. Magnification, a small oiler and a steady hand with the cap jewel shining in direct light to see the surface is what you need to do to place the oil without too much hard work. All the while you need to grip the cap jewel by the sides with some good tweezers.



Oil the bearings of the automatic framework with 9010 and install the oscillating weight.

Finish
.

The trace on the timgrapher, is this due to the mainspring not being lubricated enough or is some other part of the chain failing. It's gone from not working to running quite nicely, but I'd like it to be better. I regulated it from 5ms beat error and + 100SPD. This reading is dial up. I wanted to regulate further but decided to post this instead!



I hope this thread helps and/or becomes useful.
The next step for me is to check the train wheels are running true as I believe the escape wheel might be at fault here, or the stones of the pallet haven't in turn lubricated the escape wheel teeth in a uniform fashion.

I will be replacing the escape wheel and any other wheels I feel the conical pivots have worn or been stripped. I will also replace the mainspring barrel complete as I have one ordered. Once the diafix is cleaned and lubricated in the same method as the diashock, I'll report back with how I have got on.

 

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Craftsman
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Nice write up. I believe the 6119a + b only have a quickset date. The day is changed by running the time back and forth past midnight.

It's my understanding the main spring is not lubricated and only the barrel wall receives a very small amount of grease.

Timegraph readings may be balance related. Did you disassemble and clean the cap jewels?
 

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I don't know the 6119b very well but looking at the pics this movement doesn't have quickset for the day only date. Does the date quickset change without excessive force when uncased? If so is the movement fitted correctly (slightly twisted) to put a slight side force on stem when pushed? That might make it feel like it's tight.

I've done a few watches that weren't great on Timegrapher but seemed to check out ok without any problems or tight pivots, I de-magnetised them and oh boy, what a difference that made to the results. I had an 80 degree increase in amplitude on one watch and much cleaner line on Timegrapher.

Worth a shot.
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Thanks guys. I demagnitised the watch before starting. I didn't notice any magnetism during assembly but I'll do it again and see.

One thing I was amazed by was the movement on the timegrapher was terrible as soon as I'd finished, some snow, high downward rate of spd, but then I remembered was yet to do the pallett fork stones . I removed the movement and balance and applied a tiny amount of 941 and it started running as shown. Just shows how important that part of the lubrication is. But I wonder if the pallett wasn't cleaner well enough and the oil just 'helped'. How do you clean the pallett fork? I dropped it unto some lighter fluid for 20s and then isopropyl for another 20, worried about the jewels I understood this was OK?

I have the following lubricants: Moebius D5 - 941 - 9104 - 8217 - 8301 - 8141 - 9010 - Seiko S-6 - Seiko S-4.

Am I using or not using anything appropriately here? Would 8141 be best used on the mainspring with a couple of dabs as I see Duncan do once it's wound in the barrel? What I'll do is update the thread as I'm told too much 8301 braking grease has been used on the barrel wall. Also I'm going to show the jewel caps for the diashock and how they can or should be cleaned.

I'm aware they are specific to the jewels so will make sure I don't get em mixed up!

Can't thing of anything else. Having a coffee and later I'll update the thread. Any tips or guidance on oils would be great, especially the mainspring but also cleaning tips on the pallett would be helpful.

This is the reading after being dial up overnight on the timegrapher.

 

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Question:

Did you clean and oil the cap jewels on the balance?

Edit:

Did you oil the pivots on the pallet (you don't want to do this)

The bumps in the timeographer look a bit like a minor problem with the escapement - worn pivots or uneven teeth on the escapement.

Finally you don't need to oil the mainspring.
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Cheers Dan. Yup, cleaned and lubricated the balance diashock. Will do this again in the cleaner (mainplate plus balance complete), with the jewels removed this time, and then a subsequent cleaning of the jewel and cap separately. I originally cleaned it with them fixed and then oiled the diashock after the movement was put together. I rubbed the cap jewel on some watchmaker's paper to remove any remaining dirt and then oiled with about 50% coverage in the centre. Bloody difficult... But I will do this again.

I didn't oil the pivots on the pallett, but when I strip it again I'll clean the pallett in lighter fluid and inspect it. I have a few replacement escape wheels for the 6119 so I'll inspect and swap. Dan how do you go about cleaning the pallett?

When I see people oiling the mainspring with a few dabs on the surface, why is this done? Also what detriment does oiling the mainspring have on performance with either the coating method or the droplets on the surface once in the barrel?
 

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I clean everything (pallet fork etc...) in an Ultrasonic cleaner. I use a mixture of 60% Stoddard mineral spirits & 30% Naptha as my cleaning fluid. This is basically what the L&R ultrasonic cleaning fluid is. Once cleaned I dip it into 100% isopropyl alcohol. This will get all the metal parts perfectly clean.

As for Seiko mainsprings, most of them do not need any lubrication. That said you applied a very small amount so it should be fine. You do have to lubricate the barrel wall for an automatic with slipping grease as you have done. Looking at your photo I think you have over lubricated the barrel wall. You only need to oil 4 points around the barrel wall. If you over oil it, the bridle will slip too early and the spring will not fully wind and this will diminish the power reserve of the watch.

The problem with oiling the mainspring by dabbing some blobs on the surface is you generally apply way too much oil to the main spring.

This is a fantastic document on oiling watches. Its a must read....

http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Dan. Will check it out. On another site pallet forks in isopropyl is a no no as it would dissolve the shellac holding the pallet stones. But I was under the impression that the Seiko pallet isn't fixed with the same shellac, even the older calibers like the 6 series? Worried if I put it in isopropyl (I already did for a very quick swill after dipping it in lighter fluid) I will find the pallet stones sitting elsewhere... :)
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That pdf is interesting. The quote here about mainsprings in wrist watches differs to the method used on clocks. Which seems to be the method used sometimes, but it says this:

Barrel Assembly:-
1. Barrel:-
If the watch is self-winding, then the barrel wall is lubricated at three
positions around the circumference with points of grease the size of a small
cap jewel as found in a ladies watch.
2. Arbor:-
The arbor bearing surfaces with the barrel are lubricated as the barrel is
assembled. The bearing surfaces for the main plate and the bridge are
lubricated just prior to fitting the assembled barrel into the movement. No
additional lubricant is necessary.
3. Mainsprings:-
Mainsprings cannot be lubricated whilst in place in the barrel. The
mainspring is greased prior to being wound into the mainspring winder
with special tweezers for the task. The entire length of the spring is pulled
through the tweezers (illustrated) that have grease-charged pads. This
ensures both surfaces of the spring are fully lubricated. Care must be taken
to prevent contamination of the pads. An alternative method is to use clean
acid free tissue paper charged with grease. New mainsprings are supplied
ready lubricated and can be fitted without additional lubrication.



I think what I'll do before I get bogged down as I have done a lot of reading and some opposing thoughts make sense, is that I'll use the 8217 on the barrel wall, sparingly (the video above looks like too much...but hey ho) and then 8141 or 8301 on the mainspring by coating it with watchmaker's paper and again to clean which should be enough.

I have two barrels here so what I may do is test but probably won't be worth it! :)
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Today I redid the barrel and spring. Cleaned the mainplate, train bridge and all wheels in the ultrasonic.

The mainplate was given a bath in hot soapy water after using pegwood to clean up the remaining gunk and wiping clean any stains I could. I then would repeat the process a few times and subsequently cleaned the areas of the mainplate carefully with a fibre glass tip pen and this also helped remove any old gunk and stains. Once that was done it went back in the ultrasonic in the lighter fluid for 10 minutes before a rinse in isopropyl.

Doing this along with the train bridge and another clean of the cap jewel and their stones has left me in the position where tomorrow I will attempt a more proficient level of oiling (watched a lot of videos and read a lot...) and hopefully the issues I had will be cured, or at least a lot better. The process of elimination has somewhat gone out of the window as I have also replaced (or will on this next assembly) the escape wheels for a spare. I think the angle of the escape wheel was a few degrees out when looking at it through my loupe and magnifier.

Anyway wish me luck. I'll try and take some photos... Thanks to those who have helped and commented! :)
I'll report back tomorrow at some point.
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Just updated the assembly guide to show the correct installation of the minute wheel cover and the centre wheel bridge installed. Otherwise the guide gives the impression that once these are installed to turn the movement over, but those wheels would most like drop if they're not secured.

Replacement mainspring arrived so will update this asap.
 

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Craftsman
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I've updated th dissassembly post with some minor details. Also I've found the picture for removing the ratchet wheel which was missing.

I'll continue to refine the thread somewhat when complete but unfortunately a faulty mainspring winder and a broken ultrasonic have delayed aspects.
 
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