[Steve855]

Hi, I hope I put this in the right subforum. Does anyone have a photo of an original un-refinished 6119-8273 case? I'm trying to fix one up and it was very worn so I couldn't tell what was polished vs brushed, etc.

Thanks

 

[pollyc]

I have had several of these but non now.

The case is polished all over except for the upper facing bevel that has radial brushing that is hard to refurbish without a jig.

 

[Steve855]

Thanks, that helps. I may decide to do the radial brushed finish on that bevel but do a circular brushing on the upper surface rather than polished. It's not an expensive piece so that gives me some freedom I suppose. I'll try to include a few photos if and when I get it sorted out. I just received a new replacement crystal from Spencer K yesterday, so I'm anxious to get the case done.

Steve

 

[Steve855]

Here's an update- I never did find a good photo of an original, so I just finished it according to my preference. I've been working on some case lapping fixtures to be used with my lathe. I did it this way because I think it's important to have control of the rotational speed, and to have a disc with very little runout to finish cases accurately. Here's my first fixture, unassembled.

The discs are some hardened gear blanks which I picked up years ago from a salvage place. I couldn't machine them even with carbide tools, but they're very flat with a nice surface finish, so they're perfect for this. The rest of the parts I made from stuff I had on hand.
Here it is assembled and ready to work.

There are two important considerations for the work table;
1 adjustable angle which can be securely locked in place,
2 ability to set height to different positions relative to the rotating abrasive disc

The disc diameter is just under 6", so I ordered up some 6" psa wet/dry abrasive discs from 800 to 2000 grit. Stick it on and trim off the excess. I have two steel discs and can put one abrasive disc on each side, so I can have four different grits ready to use. Steel discs can be interchanged or flipped quickly. Here is an abrasive disc ready to go. I lubricate it with a kerosene mixture which seems to work well.

More to follow...

 

[Steve855]

I also made a fixture with a rotating spindle which can be adjusted to various angles. The business end accepts different dies which are used to hold a watch case. I machine these from nylon, similar to crystal press dies, to be a light press fit to the case ID. This allows me to set the angle then rotate the case against the abrasive disc. This is helpful for angles which are too shallow for the work table. Sorry, no photos of this yet. I bought a couple of beat-up 6119's to use for practice. I also wanted to use them for the day when I finally get the courage to attempt servicing a movement. Of course they both arrived running and keeping pretty good time! The cases were scratched and dented badly enough that I didn't feel bad using them to learn. Here's a pic from the seller of the 6119-8273.

I don't have any good photos of the process, it's the first one I've tried and I was concentrating too much to take photos. Besides, I'm not ready to author any tutorials yet. I'll leave that to the experts, I still need more practice!
I also need more photography practice, and maybe a better camera, but here are a few shots of the finished project.

I refinished most of the surfaces, as a learning exercise. The polished surfaces were lapped to 2000 before polishing. The radially brushed bevel was done with 800, I'm thinking 600 might make it more noticeable though.

I was going to sell this, but I don't think I can part with it now! Strap is a silicon Modena 24mm which I notched to fit (those who detest notched straps, please look away. )

 

[Steve855]

I was happy to find that the dial and hands were in nice condition. The crystal was very deeply scratched, so I ordered a new one from Spencer Klein. The new crystal is very high quality and nicely finished, as I'm sure most of you probably know from previous purchases. The 6119 also came with the original (and filthy!) bracelet, but I find it very narrow.

I love the size and look of this watch, it's one of my favorites now for sure. The blue dial is fantastic, but very hard to photograph.

Thanks to all here for the knowledge and encouragement! Questions or constructive criticism welcomed. More pics when I have time.

Steve

 

[pollyc]

Thank you for sharing the lapping process Steve. I know how difficult it is taking photographs that show precisely the finish of cases but I can see from yours that all your efforts have paid dividends.

I could never tackle lapping as I do not have the machine tools or ability to make holding fixtures. I can appreciate the trouble you have gone to and look forward to seeing how other case types turn out.

The original bracelets for these watches are notorious for wearing badly, your one does not look too bad, from the collectors point of view having the correct bracelet is desirable but I can appreciate it is a design that is hard to like, the watch head though with its blue dial, indices and minute track is a favorite of mine too.

 

[Steve855]

Thanks Pollyc, I need to upgrade my photo equiment and work on my technique. I'll try to get some decent pics of the rotating spindle fixture and the 6119-7080 I'm working on currently. I've realized that while my lapping fixtures are working decently, my polishing equipment needs improvement, so that's my focus right now.
I tried to research how the pros lap cases, but there's surprisingly little information to be found. I saw a few photos here and there but nothing like a "how-to" that I could find. I think the main thing is being able to present the case to the abrasive in a very precise way, and to control its movement accurately. This can be accomplished in may different ways, I guess. I'm probably doing it all wrong, but it's fun and seems to do a decent job of it.
I definitely altered the geometry of the case in this instance. I wanted to practice my skills and see what was necessary to remove every last dent and gouge, so I wasn't concerned if I went a little too far. The most noticeable departure from the original case geometry is the angled upper lug surfaces. They were really rough so I was aggressive there.

I don't intend to throw the original bracelet in the trash, but I probably won't wear it either. I guess I'll just keep it and make sure it stays with the watch. It feels rather loose in the joints, but it looks ok I suppose.
I'll post up here if/when I have anything further to add.

Steve

 

[Steve855]

Here's a photo of the fixture with rotating spindle.

This is for applying a sunburst radial finish, among other things.

6119-7080 before

After

Here's the fixture for refinishing the caseback. Fits various 6119 cases and probably many others too. Caseback snaps on and off.

Action shot!

That's all for now, hopefully someone will be inspired to try something similar, or at least find this mildly amusing. I'm going to make another thread about the 6119-7080.

Steve

 

[thickman808]

Hi Steve,

This is great, very well done.
I've had it in mind to do for a long time now. I brought an Abwood lapping grinder recently, although it ran silky smooth and had adjustable tables it was 3 phase, which whilst I have at work I don't in my garage! I could have converted it but.....sold it instead.

I have about a 4" disc that i can hold in the jaws of my toy lathe (unimate1). To which I pritsticked some 3m lapping film....superb....now to recreate this upscaled....just like yours!

With regards to your rotating fixture....did you mount it on rails so that it can move in and out...I'm unsure how important this would be.

I can't get straight in my mind why a linear 'linisher/belt sander' wouldn't be better... Am I looking at this the wrong way??

Where do you get you adhesive discs from please? That may help me no-end.

Great work, keep it up, thanks for sharing!

 

[Steve855]

Thanks!
when faced with using 3 phase equipment in home shops, many hobby machinists make rotary phase converters from surplus 3ph motors, others convert to a dc motor and run it with a VFD, this gives variable motor speed. I've never done this myself though, all my machines are single phase.

I think a disc is better than a belt for this apllication because
1. Discs are cheaper and easier to change than belts.
2. Belts always have a seam or joint. I think the "bump" every time the seam comes around would be less than ideal for this kind of precision work.

There are probably some instances where a belt is the only way, such as certain crown guards, but I haven't encounted these yet. I'll deal with this when the need arises. It may be possible to accomplish the same thing by adapting an old jigsaw or die filing machine.

I buy psa film discs from Amazon, I'm happy with them so far. I also have a 3000 grit diamond lapping disc on its way to try. You can also order lapidary abrasive discs graded in microns, but I haven't worked out exactly what grades I'll need yet with this system, being unfamiliar with it.

Here's what I bought to start
http://www.amazon.com/SUNGOLD-ABRASIVES-74623-6-inches-Assorted/dp/B00HNDMAMS/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

The rotating spindle jig rides in bronze/Teflon bushings, to allow rotation and linear motion. It can be moved relative to the abrasive disc wth the carriage and crossfeed. The spindle housing is attached to its mounting post by way of a shaft clamp collar, so it's height-adjustable and can rotate around the mounting post also. So it can be adjusted in all 3 axis, and to any vertical or horizontal angle. I don't have any indices or degree wheels on any of this, I'm more of an eyeballer. I think it would just slow down the setup, and not really add any useful improvement to the finished result.

 

[ClockBloke]

I've been making a complicated lapping attachment for my lathe with 3 heads for the past 6 months off and on. Why didn't I think of this!!????!!!

I have been refinishing by hand and as you say it takes a few attempts to get a factory look finish because of angles and wotnots. I served a 5 year apprenticeship working on metal panels for a car maker and then a few more years in the trade and I find it hard to get the correct finish without a lapping device.

Exceptional my man! I take my hat off to you.

Anyway want to buy a 1/2 made complicated pile of metal bits as I'm off to my workshop to infringe some copyrights off this post!

 

[Steve855]

Thanks ClockBloke! Infringe all you like, all I ask is that you put up some photos as I have. I decided against the multiple-head design because I wanted something simple which I could tear down quickly and put away when not in use. I still use my lathe more for turning than lapping anyway. I think the 3-head design is probably better for a business where time spent changing discs is profit lost. I'm doing this for fun, and 30 seconds changing discs is no great hardship to me. So, like Frank Sinatra and Johnny Rotten, I did it my way. As I said earlier, I may be doing this all wrong, but it seems to work ok! If there are any details missing from my description that will help you let me know and I'll do what I can. I hope you have as much fun with it as I have.
Using this design, I've been able to take old 6119's valued at around $30 each and refinish the cases so that they are now worth $31 with just a few hours work, haha.

 

[Seiko Hoarder]

This thread inspired me to acquire my own deep blue 6119-8273. It shouldn't have been that expensive of a proposition, but the way I went about it sure was. What you see is the result of combining two different watches (one had a great case, the other a good dial and hands) AND a NOS bracelet. Now my Big Blue is finally complete. Thank you PollyC and Steve855 for the inspiration. I am thankful that your photos have not fallen victim to Photobucket's blackmail efforts.

In the shade:

In full sunlight (still does not do the blue justice).

As always, the bracelet is half the point!

 

[Steve855]

Very nice. The blue dial is very hard to capture in photos.
I still have mine like this, plus 2 others.

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