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040-Overview of possible solutions

4K views 69 replies 5 participants last post by  peter.mone 
#1 ·
Summary:
 
#37 ·
Good point about IP Anthony,

but I am with Noah on this, personally I cannot see any infringement here.
Plus: were there is little money (i. e., profit) involved, high litigation costs are usually not an option, IMO :)

Best
Hermann
 
#38 ·
I also agree on the IP issues and do not think that it is a major thing just something that I thought we should keep in mind and consider.

It was more along the lines if we ended up replicating the YJ version with the distinctive notch it "might" lead to some comments. We have seen this before when other parties replicate a 3rd party crystal or band that others have spent the time to develop.

Again I do not think that is a significant issue at all but just one we should be aware of. It would be a little different if these replacement parts were widely available and we were replicating this to just undercut the price but as we all realize this is not something with significant dollars involved.
 
#39 ·
Good points Anthony, and I also feel the ethical side of the coin would be enough for us to avoid an outright copy of the YJ piece. Though we will likely arrive at a very similar looking part once we're done, it is the work involved to get there that counts.
 
#40 ·
#41 ·
These do look interesting and may be a refinement of the previous design.

The base of the wheel looks to be textured that might help to add grip when turning compared to a much smoother surface. It could also just be the photo. :)

I have put in a sniper bid for these so hopefully we can take a much closer look at them in a couple of weeks.
 
#42 ·
Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates, I've been really busy.

For about 6 months, as a "return to work" job, I was a YAG (the Yttrium one) laser operator. I still have a friendship with the company. I'm sure it could do the detail but not sure on it having enough power to cut engraver's brass. The good news is that if it's a positive, I could literally have one cut tomorrow (as in low lead time)

I'll get onto that drawing ASAP, sorry, I've just been flat out.

As for the new mould for the cast part, haven't had a chance yet to spend the time on it that it needs, I'll endeavour to do it this weekend.

As for Noah's sleeve idea, that could be done fairly easily. I'd just change the mould so the sleeve slips over the "nub" in the middle, and that should come off fairly easily. It will happily embed in the part (I've made stuff with thread inserts in it before).
 
#44 ·
I finally got a couple of the parts from YJ. These seem to be quite well made and my initial impressions are quite positive.





Looking at the parts I am guessing that they were laser cut as they seem to not have a mechanical look to the manufacturing marks, but I would like to hear others thoughts.





Due to Adrian's promising experiments with casting I am planning to send these onto him to try this technique on.

Adrian, PM me your postal address and I will send these on.
 
#45 ·
Fantastic Anthony,

many thanks for taking one for the team!!!

Did you by any chance receive a means to contact the seller directly (to ask if he would sell these in larger quantities and for which price)?
I have tried several time thru Yahoo.jp but never got a reply.

I am also very much looking forward to Adrians results with this part.

Regarding laser cutting: do you think you have the means to get something like this done, too? How do you think the "partial cutting " watch achieved (especially the angular parts at the teeth)?

@ Adrian: any news regarding the CAD file?

Thanks again and looking forward to hearing from you!

Best
Hermann
 
#46 ·
I have not contacted the seller directly but can give it a go. Unfortunately I do not expect to get any real different response to what you have not received already.

Did you send the query in English or Japanese?

The partial cut should be able to be achieved by varying the power and time in a similar way as doing an engraving.

I think the angle on the cut may have been done via a laser system as I think that some systems allow the angle of the head to be varied.

Once we have a CAD diagram of the part I can send this to my team who has the laser system and see what they can produce.
 
#47 ·
Excellent Anthony, many thanks - really looking forward to the feedback of your guys regarding laser cutting!!

As for asking the seller - I forwarded my (English) messages to FromJapan who translated them and (allegedly) forwarded them on...

Best
Hermann
 
#48 ·
Guys,

any news regarding our little project?

I must admit I had been distracted a bit lately for several reasons, and it would be good if we kept on going to finally achieve something good ;-)

Really looking forward to hearing from you!

Best
Hermann
 
#49 ·
Hi All,
I don't have any specific updates, but I have been working on hand-fabricating some 56xx corrector gears recently, for a 5626 project of mine. I was able to come up with a working example, and will probably use the momentum to make a few more for my other 56xx projects at hand.
That doesn't help the group project very much except for what I've noticed in the fabrication/fitting process. I wonder if plastic wasn't decided upon not because it was cheap (as a cost-cutting measure), but rather because of the physical properties it lent to the part.
The inner diameter of the hole in the middle of the gear is very critical when making it out of metal. And the tube it sits upon is not really all that thick, when it comes to withstanding outside forces. So too much of a friction fit, and you may distort the tube upon installation at worst, and will likely loose any sort of real safety in the quick-set mechanism when the calendar is engaged in self-driven change-over. Too big a hole, and you will get unwanted slippage- loosing "traction" when overcoming the somewhat strong date jumper (the day jumper is not as strong, nor the day dial as heavy as the date dial). So perhaps plastic offered a material that could better achieve the demands on the part, at least for the then-foreseeable future.
I will be interested to hear if these YJ correctors (with built-in split in the ring) offer both "traction" when needed, and also slippage when in the danger zone of calendar change. I resorted to not splitting my hand-made gear because it proved to be too much of a challenge to get the sizing just right. Overall it seemed to weaken the gear too much, but I may try again with the split as I get better/quicker at making them. It hurts to spend a few hours making something only to have to immediately chuck it :-(
 
#50 ·
Hi Guys,

I've been flat out with a short term contract job I picked up and had to do (the money was good), and have also been winding up my 3d printing small business, so I'm pretty much entirely back on board.

I have some new and much firmer resin arriving soon to try again with casting the wheel. I'm going to reduce the ID of the wheel, as I think we have determined this is a critical dimension to the function of the part.

I now have a bit more time to do that 2D drawing so we can look at laser cutting/photo etching.
 
#52 ·
Many thanks for the updates, guys!

@ Noah: interesting thoughts regarding the use of plastic.
I would generally agree: I think the dimensions (or the ID, more specifically) will be critical, as are the material properties, IMO.
The amount of force it requires to flex the material (i. e., allow slippage) and the flex resistance (i. e., the amount of force the material withstands w/o being permanently altered) will IMO be highly critical and probably significantly different between brass/steel alloys.

To be honest, it seems we could have a hard time optimizing manufacturability parameters as well as material properties...
Let me thus ask you all: do you think we should alter the initial project goals and exclude the "security mechanism" from our spec definition?

PERSONALLY, I would be fine with just the QS mechanism per se being restored. IMO, it requires a considerable amount of force to break a D/D driving mechanism (apart from the plastic corrector wheel) - and: we would produce a correct replacement for the MK1 corrector wheel ;-)

@ Adrian: really looking forward to your results with the new resin!
As for the drawing: are we talking about a 2D (as you wrote) or a 3D drawing?

@ Anthony: really looking forward to hearing how the reproduction wheels perform (also regarding slipping characteristics, see above)!
Did you by any chance get a response from the YJ seller you bought the wheels from? Personally, I would be fine with buying replacement wheels instead of reinventing the wheel (pun intended :D) provided they are available for a good price...

Thanks again guys!
Best
Hermann
 
#54 ·
Did you by any chance get a response from the YJ seller you bought the wheels from? Personally, I would be fine with buying replacement wheels instead of reinventing the wheel (pun intended :D) provided they are available for a good price...
I have not got a response from the seller but he has listed a few more so I will try again.

It would be best if we could implement a safety mechanism so should not pass on this yet. If it turns out too difficult to implement then a version without this would be OK but hopefully it will not come to this.
 
#53 ·
Let me thus ask you all: do you think we should alter the initial project goals and exclude the "security mechanism" from our spec definition?

My opinion is that it should be our goal to maintain safety, but I can see where that may need to be sacrificed to achieve the larger goal of having a part produced. It will really depend on what costs are associated with prototyping, along with how easy it is to work with whatever company we use for manufacturing. For example, if it is easy to specify several different inner diameters for a few samples to be initially produced, we'd be able to try them out (I'm happy to do so) and determine what size provides the necessary tension/release balance we need. But if there is a high cost associated with such a luxury, then maybe we just specify a certain size (I'd guess 1.00mm) for the hole and know that it will not be safe around calendar change hours. I don't look forward to having to explain that downside in any sort of advertising, but I guess an non-safe wheel is better than a non-functioning one.
 
#55 ·
OK guys, long time no update.

Anthony sent me some of the metal corrector wheels.

I was able to get some really good PU casts off them which had to be pressed onto the gear, exactly what I wanted.

Unfortunately after a number of turns, the PU wheels fatigue and/or stretch and the wheel starts slipping. So I can very certainly rule them out as a possible solution unless they are glued to the gear underneath. I tried 3 of them to make sure it wasn't just a loose one and they all had similar results. Not to mention they are an utter ******* to cast well.

I installed one of the metal gears afterwards and that worked really well, so that is a viable solution.

Now, how do we make them?

I've been in touch recently with Dave at Micrometric (he's the guy that does the 6309 and 4006 movement rings). He does precision laser cutting. I'm going to need to finally get that drawing done and submit that him for a trail to see if he can cut successful pieces. I think laser cutting will achieve the economy we need on the part, I don't think any sort of machining will get us the price we want.
 
#56 ·
Many thanks for the update, Adrian!

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help regarding the laser cutting solution!

Best
Hermann
 
#58 ·
Drawing done.

I've attached the editable CDR file and the DXF file. The DXF file is the important one for any digital manufacturing. You'll need to rename the file extension for these files as per the filename. I've changed them to circumvent some of the limitations of the forum software, but want to keep everything in one place.

This is version 1, so we might need some adjustments to this.
 

Attachments

#62 ·
Many thanks Adrian and Noah!

That sounds very interesting - any reply from Dave yet regarding the manufacturability?

On another note - the drawing above is in 2D, right?

Best
Hermann
 
#63 ·
Geday People,

I'm not here really much at all at present as most of my time is currently spent moderating another forum and work.

Just touching base with everyone and sending an update.

I tried to contact Dave last year a few times and had no luck. I'd say the time is right to have another go at that now. As a quick re-hash, Dave is a member here and works for Micrometric who are precision miniature laser cutters in the UK. He produces the Bell-matic and 6309/6139 casing springs.

Now int he long term, Dave is well past due for retirement so he may not be a long term oprion with production.

I supplied a 2D drawing to Hermann as he was going to do some legwork with getting a laser cutting quote.

I've been delaying purchase of another rapid prototyping machine using the DLP process because the Australian dollar has only been worth about the same as a bag full of used SWATCH watches, but that is starting to change now. I expect it to get to a reasonable level within a month or two and purchase of a machine is viable again. I expect I may be able to produce these parts on that machine, but they use feedstock I'm unfamiliar with, so it would be a while before I get a yay or nay on suitability for this project.

So actions for me -

1. Try and contact Dave at Micrometric again
2. Try to source another laser cutting supplier that's closer to me that can do the job
3. Keep an eye on the dollar
4. Perhaps consider a Chinese manufacturer that could stamp the part at a reasonable price?

On another note, I've rebuild some 5645 KS movements recently and they have an all-metal quick set assembly.
 
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