Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Ė Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading - Reply to Topic
Thread: Pallet Fork Lubrication Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Ė Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
03-12-2019 08:51 AM
rileynp Hi Michael,
By bringing it up in a public forum where the disseminated information cannot be controlled, you are advocating it, practically speaking. And I see serious issues with the method which definitely is unconventional by any definition youíd choose.
We must walk before we run, and in that spirit I highly recommend that those just starting out allow themselves to stand on the shoulders of those who have come before them, mastering industry standard techniques before they strike out on their own. Iíve given what I thought were good reasons that the establishment does not oil this way, but you seem to ignore them at every point. Itís cool, we can still be friends :-)
03-12-2019 07:35 AM
meanoldmanning Hereís the thing though Noah, itís not really an unconventional approach any more than dynamic oiling (which I frankly thought was a weird and messy approach when I first read about it), it is merely a mod of that approach but from the going side rather than through the inspection port, and while not running. I tried with pallet fork in place and not in place, either worked, one is better for a couple reason. I guarantee if you were to inspect the work of most hobbyists out there youíre likely going to find dabs of oil on the side of pallet stone, the tops of escape teeth, around the inside of the inspection port, the balance wheel rim, etc. even when Ďcorrectí technique was employed. My modified approach best as I can determine so far avoids this. Oiling this way, you can directly see the face of the escape teeth and see that you hitting them accurately or not. The only thing I have any trouble with absent a scope is whether I applied enough oil as 20x just isnít powerful enough to see that well.

And again, itís something Iím experimenting with. If others want to take an open minded look at trying it, thatís up to them, their experience may vary. Iím not advocating it, Iím merely bringing it up.







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-12-2019 12:10 AM
rileynp Michael,
There comes a point where we must examine what is easy vs. what is best practice, and set our sights on raising our techniques through practice to meet the demands of the job. I have the feeling that if something is unconventional in its approach, it really should have something to say for itself beyond being easier to carry out.
I'm not saying that everyone uses a microscope for oiling escapements- some factory service centers teach their technicians to do it with loupe only to save time. But I've tried it both ways, and like the extra control and inspection of results I can achieve under high magnification. I use the chance to also double-check my cap jewel oiling so that the extra time used by employing a microscope is not a complete loss.

And I know it may seem like I'm only good at fault-finding, but most manufacturers recommend not to run the balance in dry jewels. I applaud your willingness to think critically about a vital component of watch service, and thanks for letting me pick at it a little. You're a good sport!
03-11-2019 09:21 PM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

To be clear, this experimenting is all done on movíts that are being torn back down again and cleaned afterward. They are mine and typically beaters. Barring using a microscope which I currently donít have and as a hobbyist certainly canít justify budgeting more than a few hundred buck for something Iíll use a couple times a month, its actually extremely easy to see what Iím doing under a visor or loupe oiling the face of the escape teeth rather than the exit jewel face, especially from the going side. Also to be clear, Iíve only done it this way a few times. Iíve also tried dynamic oiling a couple years ago, and without a microscope itís really quite difficult so abandoned the practice and instead oil the exit jewel.

As to the semi-dynamic approach, itís actually easier to do with the pallet fork in place as you can slowly tick the wheel around with better control and still easily access the teeth faces as they go by. Balance jewels donít get oiled until after the escapement is oiled, and no wheels get removed after their pivot jewels are oiled. Now, obviously the next thing to do would be to use the inspection port to determine whether or not there is enough of an oil web developed between the teeth and jewel face as the slide past each other, but 20x loupe is a bit underpowered to actually see that well. Scope for inspection would be nice for sure...

I also donít work on watches for others, never had a desire to and do not offer it. I only do this to tinker and really only got into it a couple years ago as a way to get my mind off chemo. Worked well for that actually.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-11-2019 08:12 PM
rileynp Just taking the balance out of a lubricated balance jewel setting can transfer a droplet of oil from the pivot to whatever it touches on the inside of the lower and upper balance settings. In my experience, installing a fork into a wet escape wheel is highly likely to transfer some of that lubrication away from where you want it, which can create a trail for further lubrication migration. But as long as you're experimenting on your own pieces, test away! I would say, though, as you've pointed out- we can't see what we can't see. A microscope is like a timing machine- things were "good enough" before you got it, but the newfound knowledge with it is worth the expense.
03-11-2019 04:19 PM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by bk_lake View Post
I scored an Amscope 10x-30x stereo microscope on Amazon for $49. Got lost in the mail but turned up 2 weeks later at my neighbor's house. Anyway, very useful for inspecting but not very good for working on stuff. I think 3" of working distance at 10x. Plenty of depth of field and can see most of 6309 size movement.



I eventually got a 5x to 50x variable zoom with 9" working distance. Got that one for $225 on Amazon. The only thing I can think of to make it better would be a stand that can articulate/angle the head. It looks straight down and placing the screwdriver blocks my view.



I lucked into the first one and waited patiently for the second one.


Interesting. I donít think I need one yet for anything requiring drivers, mostly for oiling and definitely inspecting. The issue with tools and hands getting in the way is why you use a bent oiler for the escapement task.

In the meantime Iím going to work out oil quantity issues with the Ďsemi-dynamicí method as Noah called it. Iíve done it a few times and not seen issues with inadvertently displacing oil. Well, that I can see at 20x at least. Just need to dial in appropriate amount of oil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
03-11-2019 03:45 PM
bk_lake I scored an Amscope 10x-30x stereo microscope on Amazon for $49. Got lost in the mail but turned up 2 weeks later at my neighbor's house. Anyway, very useful for inspecting but not very good for working on stuff. I think 3" of working distance at 10x. Plenty of depth of field and can see most of 6309 size movement.



I eventually got a 5x to 50x variable zoom with 9" working distance. Got that one for $225 on Amazon. The only thing I can think of to make it better would be a stand that can articulate/angle the head. It looks straight down and placing the screwdriver blocks my view.



I lucked into the first one and waited patiently for the second one.
03-10-2019 09:39 PM
rileynp I promise you (and I rarely do such a thing), you will not understand how you coped without it once you have one. Search for "Omano OM9959".
03-10-2019 08:58 PM
meanoldmanning Great information there Noah, much appreciated. I hadnít even considered capillary action to account for the two tracks.

Scope is probably a good idea, but the stuff in my budget just doesnít have great depth of field. Will have to revisit that.

I do work with backlight though as my bench is actually a light table. That is actually incredibly helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
03-10-2019 08:24 PM
GuyJ I have been using x35 to do it, Noah and am just about to order some new lenses to take it to x50...

I also use a fine precision oiler with a slightly bent tip so I can allow slightly more clearance visually before touching the stone.
Very tricky so will report back after going from x35.
03-10-2019 08:18 PM
rileynp Please see thoughts in bold:
Quote:
Originally Posted by meanoldmanning View Post
What else would account for the two tracks than some sort of deviation? Capillary attraction on an epilamed stone would result in the behavior you see- the lubrication spreads to the edges of the tooth's travel because it is like a corner to collect in- there is epilame above and below the path of travel, and that edge draws the lubrication away from the cleared center of the path, especially when there isn't enough lubricant to fill the path.
If you have excess sideshake from wear combined with endshake you could see the contact point change more than expected, no? Youíre saying thatís actually one track? Interesting. Yes. If that were two separate tracks, that would mean your endshake would be .20mm to .30mm (if I had to guess the distance between the two), which just isn't possible. There is loads of pitting and wear on the pivots, and side and endshake so assumed it was shifting enough to cause the wide spread tracks While I agree that those pivots have got to go, they aren't allowing the play you think they are.

[Edit] youíre probably right about the amount of oil it the photo, but I think there is a wear issue. I say that only because I currently have a new pallet fork installed with the old worn escape wheel and with sufficient oil it left a nice straight strip a little thicker than the tooth face. By eye I think not as wide as combined stripes in the photo.

Not sure about dynamic oiling. Part of my reason for wanting to experiment with the technique is my depth perception is a bit impaired with age and this method works around it. And oiling the face of the jewel when assembled in addition to the issue above feels imprecise to me. I think you would be best served in learning this technique to start with a binocular microscope of at least 30-45x and good back-lighting. That can help make up for what is already a tricky procedure even with perfect depth perception.
03-10-2019 06:18 PM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
Michael,

I think youíll find that the thickness of the escape wheel teeth is about the width of that lubricated area- endshake will only change its travel by .01 to .04mm.

From here I wouldnít call that too much lubrication, perhaps you could even add a little more. Remember the goal is to have the watch stay out for several years, and a dry escapement will make that less likely to happen.

Now that youíve seen the results of a semi-dynamic oiling of the escape wheel teeth, what do you think about a completely dynamic one, where you oil from the dial side through the observation hole, while the watch is assembled and running?


What else would account for the two tracks than some sort of deviation? If you have excess sideshake from wear combined with endshake you could see the contact point change more than expected, no? Youíre saying thatís actually one track? Interesting. There is loads of pitting and wear on the pivots, and side and endshake so assumed it was shifting enough to cause the wide spread tracks

[Edit] youíre probably right about the amount of oil it the photo, but I think there is a wear issue. I say that only because I currently have a new pallet fork installed with the old worn escape wheel and with sufficient oil it left a nice straight strip a little thicker than the tooth face. By eye I think not as wide as combined stripes in the photo.

Not sure about dynamic oiling. Part of my reason for wanting to experiment with the technique is my depth perception is a bit impaired with age and this method works around it. And oiling the face of the jewel when assembled in addition to the issue above feels imprecise to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-10-2019 05:57 PM
rileynp Michael,
I think youíll find that the thickness of the escape wheel teeth is about the width of that lubricated area- endshake will only change its travel by .01 to .04mm.
From here I wouldnít call that too much lubrication, perhaps you could even add a little more. Remember the goal is to have the watch stay out for several years, and a dry escapement will make that less likely to happen.
Now that youíve seen the results of a semi-dynamic oiling of the escape wheel teeth, what do you think about a completely dynamic one, where you oil from the dial side through the observation hole, while the watch is assembled and running?
03-10-2019 03:54 PM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Thereís a lot going on in this photo. This is from the ETA 6497 I was using as a test mule in the oiling experiment. It had seen moisture for an extended amount of time apparently as there was staining on the plates and hairspring and red iron oxide on the fine adjusters.

(See Noahís posts further down in the thread for explanations of what I was misunderstanding re what I was seeing)

First, before you look at the jewel face notice the pivot is quite corroded and cone shaped. There is a lot of side and end shake on all the wheels and the pallets in this movít.

Second, you see two nice lines of oil on the exit jewel face. This was a result of position change from dial down to dial up. As a result of all the end and side shake this allowed two lines of oil to form.

Third, I know I over oiled slightly in this example. Still, oiling every other escape wheel tooth actually achieved a nice result.

Forth, I supposed if I had more advanced skills and equipment I could polish the pivots and change the jewels, but since all the wheels and pallet fork are still available new Iíll take that route instead.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-10-2019 09:52 AM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
Hi Michael,

You may want to re-think a few aspects of that approach. Escapement lubrication is one of the most critical aspects in servicing, and also one of the ones most apt to be done poorly. To minimize inconsistencies in your process, I'd make the following recommendations:

Avoid using marker on a cleaned steel wheel. You can't be sure what the long-term effects will be on a carbon steel polished surface, and more importantly it may be something that draws lubrication away from where you want it, depending on how close your marker mark is to the teeth.

I'd also recommend not removing the pallet fork once the escapement is lubricated, as you are disturbing the lubrication path on the pallet stones, and possibly helping it migrate via contact contamination with other surfaces as the fork is lifted out and re-installed.

By this logic, you may want to rethink the whole process of lubricating the teeth before installing the fork. Pallet forks don't just slot into place as you perch them in the lower jewel and then install the pallet bridge. All of that potential/likely unwanted movement of the fork is likely to allow any given surface close enough to the now-wet escape wheel teeth the chance to wick lubrication away from where it is needed on the impulse surfaces only, or give a path for the lubrication to travel away over time.

I agree itís not an ideal approach and was only something I wanted to experiment with as Iíd read about oiling the face of the teeth rather than the face of the exit pallet, I guess maybe because they can be easier to see and access? I do find I have better control than trying to oil the face of the stone. The teeth can be oiled with pallets in place or not, and since your only oiling every second or third tooth there is minimal risk of displacement if you choose to oil before setting the pallets.

As to the marker, Iím not marking the tooth near the face, but back at the ring (rim?). It would have to be mighty attractive to draw oil, but point taken. However, I will say I was curious to see if the ink from a Sharpie would do anything to the steel. I doubt it, but who knows.

All of that said, and agreeing it isnít ideal, as long as you can hit the target with minimal oil, when Iíve removed the pallets on the few Iíve experimented with to determine how well the oil is distributed it does appear to distribute very evenly after being run.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-10-2019 01:56 AM
rileynp
Quote:
Originally Posted by meanoldmanning View Post
Hereís an oiling technique Iíve played with a bit with mixed results. Iíd read about it in a few places a figured Iíd give it a whirl.

Basically, set the train other than the pallets and balance. Mark the escape wheel at one point with a fine Sharpie marker and apply oil to every second or third tooth face with a nearly dry oiler. You want to keep the amount of oil to a bare minimum. Set the pallets and balance and run the watch from full wind to nothing. If you want you can pull the balance and pallets back off to check how well the oil is distributed and if you applied enough or too much.
Hi Michael,
You may want to re-think a few aspects of that approach. Escapement lubrication is one of the most critical aspects in servicing, and also one of the ones most apt to be done poorly. To minimize inconsistencies in your process, I'd make the following recommendations:
Avoid using marker on a cleaned steel wheel. You can't be sure what the long-term effects will be on a carbon steel polished surface, and more importantly it may be something that draws lubrication away from where you want it, depending on how close your marker mark is to the teeth.
I'd also recommend not removing the pallet fork once the escapement is lubricated, as you are disturbing the lubrication path on the pallet stones, and possibly helping it migrate via contact contamination with other surfaces as the fork is lifted out and re-installed.
By this logic, you may want to rethink the whole process of lubricating the teeth before installing the fork. Pallet forks don't just slot into place as you perch them in the lower jewel and then install the pallet bridge. All of that potential/likely unwanted movement of the fork is likely to allow any given surface close enough to the now-wet escape wheel teeth the chance to wick lubrication away from where it is needed on the impulse surfaces only, or give a path for the lubrication to travel away over time.
03-09-2019 11:39 AM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Hereís an oiling technique Iíve played with a bit with mixed results. Iíd read about it in a few places a figured Iíd give it a whirl.

Basically, set the train other than the pallets and balance. Mark the escape wheel at one point with a fine Sharpie marker and apply oil to every second or third tooth face with a nearly dry oiler. You want to keep the amount of oil to a bare minimum. Set the pallets and balance and run the watch from full wind to nothing. If you want you can pull the balance and pallets back off to check how well the oil is distributed and if you applied enough or too much.

It seems to work pretty well on the 6 series movíts once you get the technique down, but I didnít like the results on the 6497 Iím working on. I think in that instance I needed to oil fewer teeth or with a dryer oiler.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-09-2019 05:13 AM
IMeasure Oiling pallet stones is something I really have down. I do it before I install the balance. The oiling of the stone is actually a 2 stage process. The first is to get a small amount of oil on the exit stone. You then use tweezers to gently rock the pallet back and forth so the oil is transferred to the next 4 escape wheel teeth. You then apply another small amount to the exit stone and repeat this until all the escape wheel teeth are lubricated.

I use 9415
03-08-2019 04:33 PM
Pippy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vette Enthusiast View Post
I have heard the Moebius 9415 is a bit thicker and stays put on the ends of the pallet stones better than 9010.
Itís a lot thicker.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-08-2019 04:02 PM
GuyJ 201070129580

No affiliation etc etc...that's what I use tho Roger. May well be alternatives I'm not aware of.
03-08-2019 03:58 PM
rogart-63
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJ View Post
watchmakers paper, pith, pegwood, all useful... Watchmaklers paper is good to give the caps a little rub with.
Learned something today . Didn't know there where such thing as special watchmakers paper. Any special brand that is better then the other?
03-08-2019 02:47 PM
meanoldmanning
Pallet Fork Lubrication

Iíve been experimenting with the Zenith epilame. It is recommended to keep it off pivots as well, which makes it a bit tricky to apply to the escape wheel and pallets as it seems to spread as soon as it touches metal. It also flashes off really quickly so itís almost impossible to apply with an oiler.

Anyway, it gets applied as best as possible and then the movít is run for X amount of time without oiling to wear the treatment off the pallet faces and escape wheel teeth where they contact each other. After that you apply you oil and the treatment forces the lube to bead up into the now untreated area. Pretty neat actually. It also demonstrates what a tiny amount of oil should be applied to the pallet stone face I guess

I do the cap jewels as well. Keeps the oil droplet beaded up and does not spread.

The Zenith stuff apparently isnít as good as the other, but it does work and is a fair bit cheaper.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
03-08-2019 02:39 PM
nzwatchdoctor Don't oil the pivots (I know.....Seiko do...but that doesn't make it best practice) and put a little on the exit stone.



I've experimented re oiling the pivots - it barely increases the amplitude at
times but if it takes that do do it there is something wrong in the rest of the wheel train that you need to correct.



Oil in pallet pivots is the first oil to harden up (as it doesn't rotate like wheel pivot oil does) and decrease performance over the years
03-08-2019 02:01 PM
DonJ53 From the Seiko 6106A disassembly/assembly pdf,

Set pallet after lubricating pallet jewels (Moebius Synt A).

I have been using 9010.

This reminds me of a filum where a bomb disposal guy was dealing with a 500 lb'er, Cut the red wire, but first remove the fuse.
03-08-2019 01:11 PM
GuyJ watchmakers paper, pith, pegwood, all useful... Watchmaklers paper is good to give the caps a little rub with.
This thread has more than 25 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:36 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.