Confirmation that the 6139 was the first auto chrono - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2020, 06:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
akable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,796
Points: 68 (+)
Default Confirmation that the 6139 was the first auto chrono

As you are aware Japanese watch researcher Sadao Ryugo has recently released a book where he was able to interview a number of the original design staff at Epson and also view various internal documents and blueprints as part of his research.

During his investigations he was able to find some interesting documentation showing the timeline of the release of the 6139. In the Suwa Seikosha internal company report released in May 1969 they specifically note the date of May 21st as when the Speed-Timers went on sale to the general public. May has always been the reported month for the release but it is nice to have a specific date identified for this.

He also was able to view various company internal notebooks, blueprints, and design documents that detailed out the timeline for the production. The prototype Speed-Timer model was completed in August 1968. The initial 6139 model designs and final samples were completed in September 1968. In October the mass production of movements and case parts began.

As Ryugo-san points out in the book “In other words, when Zenith announced the completion of the prototype and samples in January 1969 and Heuer in March 1969, Suwa Seikosha was already in the process of mass production for shipment.”

It is nice to see some confirmation of the timeline that matches up with what we had already assumed.
__________________
Anthony
akable is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2020, 06:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Points: 2 (+)
Default

Your Seiko knowledge is amazing Anthony ,well done again .
kagrunter` is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 07:00 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Mr. Jack Heuer recalls, “At the Basel Fair in April 1969, Mr. Itiro Hattori, then President of Seiko, visited our display, and extended his congratulations to the Heuer Company, upon our launching of the world’s first automatic chronograph. There was certainly no mention of Seiko having an automatic chronograph. In retrospect, this may have been the most important acknowledgement of our accomplishment."


Today it is difficult to assess who was the first, you can only say who first mass introduced to the sales ....

Last edited by MR.YODA; 01-05-2020 at 07:17 AM.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2020, 07:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
7s26b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Borg collective.
Posts: 4,407
Points: 40 (+)
Default

Thanks for those valuable facts and clarification, Anthony, fascinating post as always!
"There was certainly no mention of Seiko having an automatic chronograph. In retrospect, this may have been the most important acknowledgement of our accomplishment."
Or one of the biggest failures to understand the Japanese psyche?
__________________
To titillate an Ocelot,
Oscillate it's tit a lot.

7s26b is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 07:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7s26b View Post
Thanks for those valuable facts and clarification, Anthony, fascinating post as always!
"There was certainly no mention of Seiko having an automatic chronograph. In retrospect, this may have been the most important acknowledgement of our accomplishment."
Or one of the biggest failures to understand the Japanese psyche?

Possible..
But we are talking about facts, and these must be supported by evidence, and these lack ... there are only guesses.
I know the industry too well, and I know how it happens, who developed, who patented, who introduced to production .... What criterion do we use?
Adrien Philippe (from Patek) is considered to be
winding the watch with the watch crown , although today it is known that this solution existed earlier, he was the first to patent .....


From another industry, a good example is the radio, who invented, who developed and who patented - Tesla, Popov or Marconi?

Last edited by MR.YODA; 01-05-2020 at 07:44 AM.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 08:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
SeikoPsycho2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE PA
Posts: 3,425
Points: 126 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
Possible..
But we are talking about facts, and these must be supported by evidence, and these lack ... there are only guesses.
I know the industry too well, and I know how it happens, who developed, who patented, who introduced to production .... What criterion do we use?
Adrien Philippe (from Patek) is considered to be
winding the watch with the watch crown , although today it is known that this solution existed earlier, he was the first to patent .....


From another industry, a good example is the radio, who invented, who developed and who patented - Tesla, Popov or Marconi?

Anthony Clearly states that the Documentation exists and was viewed by the Author. Maybe it's shown in his book?
__________________
Too Many Watches - Not Enough Time...
The Comprehensive 6139-600X Variations Review
https://www.thewatchsite.com/15-vint...ns-review.html
The 330W18GN 6139-60XX Comprehensive Crystal Review
https://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japa...al-review.html


Gracefully Delivered from Delusions..........
It's not about Religion, It's about a Relationship........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjcsMZRXqCc
SeikoPsycho2 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 08:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
Anthony Clearly states that the Documentation exists and was viewed by the Author. Maybe it's shown in his book?
I don't question what Anthony wrote, it's interesting, I write about something else,
We do not know who first "invented", who "developed", we only know who first introduced to mass sale ...
Maybe Heuer first developed the prototype? We don't know that.

If the criterion is the introduction to the mass market, then the first is Seiko

edit
It is different in the industry, look ...

https://www.thewatchsite.com/33-off-...ml#post2856909

Last edited by MR.YODA; 01-05-2020 at 08:26 AM.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 10:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
7s26b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Borg collective.
Posts: 4,407
Points: 40 (+)
Default

Thanks, but I'll take AK's word and the documentary evidence as correct

So Japanese cultural traits aren't "fact", really?

You should maybe do some more research, and make a more considered answer, before ejaculating further.
__________________
To titillate an Ocelot,
Oscillate it's tit a lot.

7s26b is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 10:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
DAHASCO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 24,323
Points: 326 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7s26b View Post
Thanks, but I'll take AK's word and the documentary evidence as correct

So Japanese cultural traits aren't "fact", really?

You should maybe do some more research, and make a more considered answer, before ejaculating further.
My sentiments exactly ^^^ Why inject beliefs outside of Seiko when AK's facts are clear ?
__________________
Thanks, D

The Diver's Bezel is the single greatest accomplishment of mankind. While the tachy scale is one of the least useful inventions ever. Not an argument.
DAHASCO is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 10:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
scubarob99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,008
Points: 36 (+)
Default

It seems pretty clear Seiko was months ahead of the competition, prototype/samples/ mass production.
I see no need to argue for the sake of arguing.

Rob
scubarob99 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 11:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7s26b View Post
Thanks, but I'll take AK's word and the documentary evidence as correct

So Japanese cultural traits aren't "fact", really?

You should maybe do some more research, and make a more considered answer, before ejaculating further.

Free will, do whatever you want
I just don't understand what Japanese culture has to do with it? Courtesy ?, it's funny ....

My answers are well thought out and yours are looking for a row .....
You can't talk to culture, don't talk please ...
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 11:04 AM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scubarob99 View Post
It seems pretty clear Seiko was months ahead of the competition, prototype/samples/ mass production.
I see no need to argue for the sake of arguing.

Rob
Rob,

And we have evidence that Heuer didn't do it before as a prototype ?, no, we know only thanks to a colleague facts from Seiko.
Seiko was the first in production, it's clear, but who first developed it? We don't know that without comparing documents from both companies ... and that's what I mean.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 11:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

I withdraw from the conversation because if it turns out that I am right then my friend @7s26b ... will commit harakiri as strongly associated with Japanese culture


Have a nice day and thank the author of the topic for an interesting topic.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 11:18 AM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
scubarob99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,008
Points: 36 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
Rob,

And we have evidence that Heuer didn't do it before as a prototype ?, no, we know only thanks to a colleague facts from Seiko.
Seiko was the first in production, it's clear, but who first developed it? We don't know that without comparing documents from both companies ... and that's what I mean.
Dates are clearly stated in the OP.
Anthony's knowledge of Seiko has been a fantastic source for years, and rarely contradicted.
Its confirmation of what we already knew, but nice to have some actual dates.

Rob
scubarob99 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 11:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
scubarob99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,008
Points: 36 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
I withdraw from the conversation because if it turns out that I am right then my friend @7s26b ... will commit harakiri as strongly associated with Japanese culture


Have a nice day and thank the author of the topic for an interesting topic.
I'm sure it will spark a strong debate whether Harakiri or Seppuku is the correct term!

Rob
scubarob99 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 12:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
7s26b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Borg collective.
Posts: 4,407
Points: 40 (+)
Default

"A fox always smells it's own hole first"
__________________
To titillate an Ocelot,
Oscillate it's tit a lot.

7s26b is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 12:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7s26b View Post
__________________
There's a thin line between flogging a dead horse and whacking a live one.


However, viagra works, because your mood is back, it's good
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 12:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
Moderator
 
TheTigerUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 28,131
Points: 640 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scubarob99 View Post
Dates are clearly stated in the OP.
Anthony's knowledge of Seiko has been a fantastic source for years, and rarely contradicted.
Its confirmation of what we already knew, but nice to have some actual dates.

Rob
Like you say WE knew
__________________

TheTigerUK is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 01:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
rileynp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,894
Points: 29 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
Rob,

And we have evidence that Heuer didn't do it before as a prototype ?, no, we know only thanks to a colleague facts from Seiko.
Seiko was the first in production, it's clear, but who first developed it? We don't know that without comparing documents from both companies ... and that's what I mean.
Mr. Yoda,
I don't understand the point behind your statements. I can have the idea for a perfect timekeeper that works on love and gummy bears, and can even start a prototype of such. But if you produce such a machine before I do, what credit for your product am I to receive, especially if we didn't collaborate on the love and gummy bears machine?

To me, your implications thus far are that Seiko saw other companies doing something, decided to copy them, and then still beat them to market. I don't think this is a fair reading of the timeline or facts, but perhaps I misunderstand your intent. I feel like there is precedent for incremental technological jumps occurring simultaneously in other areas of horology (and the world at large), so it doesn't seem hard to believe that several independent bodies could be working on a similar project (adding one existing technology to another existing technology, i.e. automatic+chronograph) at the same time, and arrive at completed mass-market products in close succession.

If one chooses to split hairs, then Seiko was the first to offer one for sale to the public according to the information we have at hand, which is more important than a proof of concept or even prototype, right? It seems like there's a pretty clear finish line in a race, and a caliber for sale (that has consequently stood the test of time) seems like the best place to put that line. An idea alone does not put tangible creations in the hands of the watch-buying public, so it seems silly to wonder who had the idea first, unless you are implying intellectual property theft. (I feel like this line of argument as also used to attempt to smear the Spring Drive technology development, too.)

All of the above is said as a fellow enthusiast. As a moderator, I'd invite you to completely stop personal jabs and attacks on any other members, even if you feel they started it. If you can't come here to have fun over watches even when opinions differ, then perhaps we are not for you.
__________________
--Noah R.
rileynp is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 02:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
Mr. Yoda,
I don't understand the point behind your statements. I can have the idea for a perfect timekeeper that works on love and gummy bears, and can even start a prototype of such. But if you produce such a machine before I do, what credit for your product am I to receive, especially if we didn't collaborate on the love and gummy bears machine?

To me, your implications thus far are that Seiko saw other companies doing something, decided to copy them, and then still beat them to market. I don't think this is a fair reading of the timeline or facts, but perhaps I misunderstand your intent. I feel like there is precedent for incremental technological jumps occurring simultaneously in other areas of horology (and the world at large), so it doesn't seem hard to believe that several independent bodies could be working on a similar project (adding one existing technology to another existing technology, i.e. automatic+chronograph) at the same time, and arrive at completed mass-market products in close succession.

If one chooses to split hairs, then Seiko was the first to offer one for sale to the public according to the information we have at hand, which is more important than a proof of concept or even prototype, right? It seems like there's a pretty clear finish line in a race, and a caliber for sale (that has consequently stood the test of time) seems like the best place to put that line. An idea alone does not put tangible creations in the hands of the watch-buying public, so it seems silly to wonder who had the idea first, unless you are implying intellectual property theft. (I feel like this line of argument as also used to attempt to smear the Spring Drive technology development, too.)

All of the above is said as a fellow enthusiast. As a moderator, I'd invite you to completely stop personal jabs and attacks on any other members, even if you feel they started it. If you can't come here to have fun over watches even when opinions differ, then perhaps we are not for you.

I absolutely don't think so.

Mr. Moderator, today from this interesting topic I found out that Seiko produced the first chronograph with automatic winding ...
Cool.
I read a bit, and ask questions about how it was, who made the prototype first, who patented, etc., hoping that I will learn new facts that will educate me, and the conversation on the topic will gain energy ...

But no, there are users like spoiled children who do not like it and attack ....

P.S The user who used to call me on another topic as the streetboy ignored your request and did not remove the insults ...
So I ask: can you talk and ask questions in the forum or just croak like other crows, otherwise your eyes will peck?

I respect you.

Last edited by MR.YODA; 01-05-2020 at 02:13 PM.
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 03:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
Moderator
 
ivorbiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: in the dog house
Posts: 2,049
Points: 74 (+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
Mr. Yoda,
I don't understand the point behind your statements. I can have the idea for a perfect timekeeper that works on love and gummy bears, and can even start a prototype of such. But if you produce such a machine before I do, what credit for your product am I to receive, especially if we didn't collaborate on the love and gummy bears machine?

To me, your implications thus far are that Seiko saw other companies doing something, decided to copy them, and then still beat them to market. I don't think this is a fair reading of the timeline or facts, but perhaps I misunderstand your intent. I feel like there is precedent for incremental technological jumps occurring simultaneously in other areas of horology (and the world at large), so it doesn't seem hard to believe that several independent bodies could be working on a similar project (adding one existing technology to another existing technology, i.e. automatic+chronograph) at the same time, and arrive at completed mass-market products in close succession.

If one chooses to split hairs, then Seiko was the first to offer one for sale to the public according to the information we have at hand, which is more important than a proof of concept or even prototype, right? It seems like there's a pretty clear finish line in a race, and a caliber for sale (that has consequently stood the test of time) seems like the best place to put that line. An idea alone does not put tangible creations in the hands of the watch-buying public, so it seems silly to wonder who had the idea first, unless you are implying intellectual property theft. (I feel like this line of argument as also used to attempt to smear the Spring Drive technology development, too.)

All of the above is said as a fellow enthusiast. As a moderator, I'd invite you to completely stop personal jabs and attacks on any other members, even if you feel they started it. If you can't come here to have fun over watches even when opinions differ, then perhaps we are not for you.

I cant put it that eloquently.


I can only say that i find a certain individual to be IMOP self righteous, with a holier than thou attitude, who appears to argue for arguements sake.
Its pissing me off, and i have no doubt that other forum members feel the same



However it would appear that the force is present with this individual, as i keep hitting my ban button and it doesn't work.
ivorbiggin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following Member Awarded A Point to ivorbiggin For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2020, 03:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
MR.YODA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: POLAND
Posts: 867
Points: 67 (+)
Default

Gentlemen, if I disturb you, please ban me and after "trouble"....
MR.YODA is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 05:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,561
Points: 90 (+)
Default

Well that was an interesting thread.

One thing that might have been lost is the well known concept of Simultaneous Invention which occurs often in science and technology. We revere the first to patent or publish but so often 2 or even 3 completely independent people or groups are working on the same thing.

Recently Takaaki Kajita and Arthur B. McDonald were both awarded the Nobel prize for finding that neutrinos have mass.

Famously Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace both describe natural selection at the same time in the 1880s.

I could make this into an essay but it's Monday morning here and I have to earn a crust.

Dan
IMeasure is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following Member Awarded A Point to IMeasure For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2020, 06:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
scubarob99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,008
Points: 36 (+)
Default

Banned? Yoda is? Teach him it will.

Rob
scubarob99 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2020, 08:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
jringo8769's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Jamestown NY
Posts: 6,001
Points: 93 (+)
Default

Honestly does it really matter who was first?
Especially not enough to get upset with anyone over it
Life is way too short to get upset about these beautiful watches
God Bless,John

I always thought Seiko was the first from my memory and love the 6139's as they are timeless and created the same year I was

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
__________________
"What do you care about what other people think" Richard P. Feynman

For i was hungry u fed me,I was thirsty, and you gave me drink I was a stranger, and ye took me in

I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.

Last edited by jringo8769; 01-05-2020 at 08:29 PM.
jringo8769 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:58 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.