Confirmation that the 6139 was the first auto chrono - Page 2 - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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This is a shame really. I understand what Yoda was trying to say. What we need is the internal documents from the Calibre 11 and Zenith groups to know exactly who developed their prototypes first. This info probably exists. But now thanks to this new book (which Im still awaiting delivery!!!) we know about Seikos internal documents for the first time and the true dates for their prototypes. Im pretty sure that Seiko will be proven to have theirs first based on my limited research of the Swiss developments.


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Old 01-06-2020, 03:15 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I am surprised by the amount of debate over this information as it really does not change what was already well documented and accepted.

Zenith made the first public announcement of an automatic chronograph in January 1969.
Heuer made the second announcement.
Seiko was first to release an auto chronograph for sale to the public in May 1969.

The only new information relating to the "first" was the exact date in May for Seiko sales to the public on the 21st.

Obviously I did not make the post clear enough and it did not say that the Seiko prototype was produced before the Zenith or Heuer prototypes. As we know all of these companies and others were working on auto chronographs at the same time. We do know that Seiko finalised their designs in August for the 6139 and that the final samples with any required design changes were completed in September. This is the kind of schedule you would expect when you complete a design, then manufacture the final samples and commit to this design a few weeks after.

None of these dates indicate when Seiko produced their first prototype. We know that the 6139 prototype was completed in August but I am sure that Seiko did not decide to bring their first design directly to production. I am sure that they would have gone through numerous prototypes before selecting a design that they thought would be the most efficient to produce as well as being reliable for everyday use. This would be the same for every company as there is no way that the very first automatic chronograph design from Zenith was the one they eventually settled on and announced in January.

None of the information shared by Seiko, or any other company, provides a date to when they first had an automatic chrono prototype in their hand and was able to start/stop and reset it. When developing a product the first prototype that you make is always just a proof of concept and this is then refined to eventually come up with the finial production design.

Honestly I do not care at all about who had the first prototype as I think this is kind of irrelevant, if you can not purchase one then it really has no impact on the market. If a company has a prototype working in the hands of their product development team that is great, but if it never comes to market or then goes through various design changes does it really matter.

It is possible that Zenith had finalised their design in January just hours before the press announcement or it is just as possible that this design was completed months before their public announcement. All we know for sure it that they were the first to publicly announce they had a completed auto chronograph and intended to bring this to market. The other thing we know is that Seiko did not make any public announcement about their future plans and instead just released an auto chrono to the public on May 21st 1969.
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Old 01-06-2020, 03:28 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
Mr. Jack Heuer recalls, At the Basel Fair in April 1969, Mr. Itiro Hattori, then President of Seiko, visited our display, and extended his congratulations to the Heuer Company, upon our launching of the worlds first automatic chronograph. There was certainly no mention of Seiko having an automatic chronograph. In retrospect, this may have been the most important acknowledgement of our accomplishment."

Today it is difficult to assess who was the first, you can only say who first mass introduced to the sales ....
I think you can clearly state that Zenith was the first to publicly announce an automatic chronograph and that Seiko was first to offer this for sale.

I do not think that it is surprising at all that Hattori-san would have congratulated Mr. Heuer at the show on their accomplishment. This would be a totally normal reaction between company heads and you would expect similar behaviours today. I am sure if a company head visits their competitors stand or sees them at the show they will congratulate them on their announcements and releases.

It is also not surprising in any way that if you are the head of a company who are about to release an unannounced product to market the following month, you do not advise your competitors of this. Especially if you are aware that there are at least two companies that are about to release competing products.
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:21 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akable View Post
.

Zenith made the first public announcement of an automatic chronograph in January 1969.
Heuer made the second announcement.
Seiko was first to release an auto chronograph for sale to the public in May 1969.

The only new information relating to the "first" was the exact date in May for Seiko sales to the public on the 21st.


Honestly I do not care at all about who had the first prototype as I think this is kind of irrelevant, if you can not purchase one then it really has no impact on the market. If a company has a prototype working in the hands of their product development team that is great, but if it never comes to market or then goes through various design changes does it really matter.
however it was the chromatic group who released the first batch of them, 100 pieces in April. I think it's not entirely sure what happened to those and most where for the media and retailers. But at that point in April there were 100 auto chrono's from the chromatic group floating around with different people than themselves. So there is still room for debate as to who was first imho
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Old 01-09-2020, 08:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I just ordered the book in question, should be an interesting read and it comes highly praised by fellow Seiko enthusiasts. If I'm honest I don't give a sh_t about the debate, I'm just a fan of the product. As you were friends.
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:25 PM   #31 (permalink)
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i am tired of argumentarians infiltrating threads and lowering the quality of discourse.
it's fine to disagree, but there are people who are deliberately snide, mean, insulting,
or just plain difficult, and while it's a good thing to be tolerant, i'd appreciate it if the moderators would exercise their power more often, it's what they're here for, and i support them. there should be no place for trolling here....thanks akable for all that
information...:P)
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:19 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterrizzo View Post
i am tired of argumentarians infiltrating threads and lowering the quality of discourse.
it's fine to disagree, but there are people who are deliberately snide, mean, insulting,
or just plain difficult, and while it's a good thing to be tolerant, i'd appreciate it if the moderators would exercise their power more often, it's what they're here for, and i support them. there should be no place for trolling here....thanks akable for all that
information...:P)
Yes yes and yes. With you all the way Peter.

Anthony/Akable is such a valuable resource to our hobby and the Seiko community. This thread is a typical example of how Akable helps Seiko WIS's (like myself) deepen our appreciation for the company, its history, the brand, and the product itself.
Fascinating stuff.

So the trollers troll and the haters hate and we have to ignore their nonsense.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterrizzo View Post
i am tired of argumentarians infiltrating threads and lowering the quality of discourse.
it's fine to disagree, but there are people who are deliberately snide, mean, insulting,
or just plain difficult, and while it's a good thing to be tolerant, i'd appreciate it if the moderators would exercise their power more often, it's what they're here for, and i support them. there should be no place for trolling here....thanks akable for all that
information...:P)
Ditto
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Old 01-10-2020, 08:25 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Banned? Yoda is? Teach him it will.

Rob
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:10 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I look at it this way. The first to sell to a consumer, is the 1st that matters.

I can proclaim that I'll be producing & selling a teleportation machine in the coming months, but until I sell a teleportation machine that works, I'm hopeful, but I'm not 1st.

Someone else could easily hear that I'm getting ready to produce a teleportation machine, and if I haven't revealed the pending release, say they will do it ahead of me, but not actually be successful. Who is 1st? the one who delivers.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I've always viewed this as how you define "first". Zenith was first to announce in January. I thought Heuer/Caliber 11 was available in March/April. But we've seen serialized production from Seiko as early as January 1969. So I'd say Zenith was first to announce, Heuer was first to sell internationally, and Seiko was first at serial production (which to me is the biggest accomplishment). Seiko never pushed their accomplishment except for the truly groundbreaking, like the Astron (also 1969 - a very good year for Seiko).
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:53 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Thanks for the comment. I would be interested in seeing any info on the March/April Cal.11 sales as I have not seen any details on that before.

I know that they publicly announced the Cal.11 in March at events in Geneva and New York and also showed prototypes again at the Baselworld show in April. I was not aware that there were any sales to customers around this time unless you mean they were taking orders from dealers from the show.

If you have any details on the international sales at that time I would be interested to find out more.

The late 60's and early 70's would have been an incredibly interesting time to have been involved in the industry with so many interesting and rapid developments.
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:59 AM   #38 (permalink)
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could it be that Seiko sales offerings were a bit regional back in 1969? we have come across numerous Seiko auto chronographs in the Philippines dated 1969.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:05 AM   #39 (permalink)
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@janiceandfred
can you show pics?
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:16 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiceandfred View Post
could it be that Seiko sales offerings were a bit regional back in 1969? we have come across numerous Seiko auto chronographs in the Philippines dated 1969.
Thanks, what month where the earliest you have seen ?
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:36 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiceandfred View Post
could it be that Seiko sales offerings were a bit regional back in 1969? we have come across numerous Seiko auto chronographs in the Philippines dated 1969.
We're these all 6139 -600X and 6139-601X chronos? That is indeed common enough.
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Thanks, what month where the earliest you have seen ?
I don't recall the month but we have had a few pogue style chronos from '69.
I never really thought that was unusual.
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Old 01-22-2020, 09:57 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I don't recall the month but we have had a few pogue style chronos from '69.
I never really thought that was unusual.
You are correct.
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CombatID View Post
This is a shame really. I understand what Yoda was trying to say. What we need is the internal documents from the Calibre 11 and Zenith groups to know exactly who developed their prototypes first. This info probably exists. But now thanks to this new book (which I’m still awaiting delivery!!!) we know about Seikos internal documents for the first time and the true dates for their prototypes. I’m pretty sure that Seiko will be proven to have theirs first based on my limited research of the Swiss developments.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterrizzo View Post
i am tired of argumentarians infiltrating threads and lowering the quality of discourse.
it's fine to disagree, but there are people who are deliberately snide, mean, insulting,
or just plain difficult, and while it's a good thing to be tolerant, i'd appreciate it if the moderators would exercise their power more often, it's what they're here for, and i support them. there should be no place for trolling here....thanks akable for all that
information...:P)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
Yes yes and yes. With you all the way Peter.

Anthony/Akable is such a valuable resource to our hobby and the Seiko community. This thread is a typical example of how Akable helps Seiko WIS's (like myself) deepen our appreciation for the company, its history, the brand, and the product itself.
Fascinating stuff.

So the trollers troll and the haters hate and we have to ignore their nonsense.
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Ditto
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Originally Posted by Supermoto View Post
Outstanding
I see that only a colleague @ CombatID (and several others) understood what I meant ...
As I wrote earlier, I just wanted to talk, I did not deny anything, I shared the knowledge I have, because there is a forum for that?
In response, I was called a troll and hater.
I am very sorry because I am not insulting others.

Have a nice day everyone.
EOT.
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Old Yesterday, 01:24 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Yoda is back?!


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Old Yesterday, 08:51 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yoda is back?!
Yes of course.
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