Pogue inner bezel question - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Pogue inner bezel question

This information (and photocopy scan of Pogue's actual watch) suggest the inner bezel on his watch was white, not a matching gold for the dial?


http://sinn142.fateback.com/pogue.html


Is this the case, as this reference says "a yellow dial will have a yellow chapter ring and a black dial, a black chapter ring. There is question whether a black chapter came with a yellow dial. Some claim to have original that came that way," [size=78%]:



https://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php/topic,171.0.html


This color photo of Pogue's supposed watch also looks to be white:


http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...&lotIdNo=32001

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Old 08-25-2012, 09:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Pogue inner bezel question

Doesn't look white to me.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Note that the 1st watch in the letter to Pogue is NOT Pogue's watch, but that of the person writing to him. His watch is the one in the b&w scan. There is a CLEAR color difference in the scan between the dial and the inner bezel.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Yes, if you look here, it is pretty obvious.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

We've been over this one numerous times and the correct consensus is that at no point was a 6139-600x sold with a white indicator ring. The 6139 guide is a little out of date.

I believe the following is correct -

Yellow dial -> Always with yellow indicator ring, some rare occurances with a black ring from new (seems mainly to come from Australia)
Blue dial -> With blue indicator ring until about 1976, when changed to black
Silver dial -> Always with black indicator ring

As for the off colours -

Yellow ring -> fades to white
Blue ring -> fades to light grey/white (some have been seen faded to white,)
Black ring -> doesn't fade, or minimal fading

The blue ring is the most prone to fading.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

I thought the blue 6139-6000 originaly came with a white ring , hence the 'pepsi' name from the red,white and blue of the tins
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by seikola
I thought the blue 6139-6000 originaly came with a white ring , hence the 'pepsi' name from the red,white and blue of the tins
seikola
Nope, we've pretty much proven that not to be true. A bunch of guys here have some of the earliest production models and they all have the blue/yellow ring. If it's a white ring it's very heavily faded or has been replaced with a reproduction ring. You can pick the faded ones, they have silver printing over white. Reproduction is black printing on a white ring.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloeight
Nope, we've pretty much proven that not to be true. A bunch of guys here have some of the earliest production models and they all have the blue/yellow ring. If it's a white ring it's very heavily faded or has been replaced with a reproduction ring. You can pick the faded ones, they have silver printing over white. Reproduction is black printing on a white ring.

This is what I was looking for. If true (not questioning) it means this isn't a watch I care to pursue:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-CHRONO...ht_1671wt_1165

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Old 08-25-2012, 10:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloeight
Nope, we've pretty much proven that not to be true. A bunch of guys here have some of the earliest production models and they all have the blue/yellow ring. If it's a white ring it's very heavily faded or has been replaced with a reproduction ring. You can pick the faded ones, they have silver printing over white. Reproduction is black printing on a white ring.
Ah so someone finaly scratched the the markings of a white and yellow ring and found it was yellow under the markings? I've not seen any chatter on this subject for a couple of years so may be behind the curve a bit
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Pedals_6Speeds

This is what I was looking for. If true (not questioning) it means this isn't a watch I care to pursue:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-CHRONO...ht_1671wt_1165
I'd avoid that piece. The indicator ring is heavily faded or a reproduction and the bracelet is not the original bracelet (despite what the seller says). The movement looks nice. The dial lume is heavily blackened. The tachymetre ring is heavily faded. The case is polished but isn't too bad.

So to get that back to original condition, the price list will look something like this -

1 x Reproduction bracelet + end links from swedefreak - $75.00
1 x Replacement Tachymetre ring - $20.00
1 x Set of seals - $12.00
1 x Yellow indicator ring - $65.00 (approx going rate when they can be found)
1 x Dial relume - $100 ? (I'm not sure of the going rate)

So the total is around $272.00, and that's not including any labour for some of these replacements.

So, at that price, I'd say you'd do better buying from the trade forum.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by seikola
Ah so someone finaly scratched the the markings of a white and yellow ring and found it was yellow under the markings? I've not seen any chatter on this subject for a couple of years so may be behind the curve a bit
seikola
From the photos they look yelloow underneath. I've never purchased one so I'm not 100% sure this is the case.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

My thinking as well, if a good one would just come up on the forum.......
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Pedals_6Speeds
My thinking as well, if a good one would just come up on the forum.......
Put up a WTB. I purchased 2 nice ones just from an ad.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloeight
I'd avoid that piece. the bracelet is not the original bracelet (despite what the seller says).

Well only says it's an original Seiko bracelet but no conformation what it is original to, it's all in the wording
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Despite many forays into discussions of the white indicator being a faded yellow, I am still not convinced that Seiko didn't make some indicators in white.

THE "Pogue" is a good argument for as is this note just received form a fellow whose 6139-6005 I worked on this week...

"Hi Jonathan,

I always remember the inner ring being the way it is. I bought this watch in 1977 in the military exchange (PX) Stuttgart Germany.
As I have been told the PX sometime has variations to products on sale such as the day indication being in English and German. Hope this helps you.
again, thank you for a fantastic refurbishment."

"Hi, X.....

Thanks so much for your generous compliments. I hope you have many more years of enjoyment and adventure with this great timepiece.

One question,, if I may---do you remember the inner rotating ring being white, as it is now, or yellow when you bought the watch?

Best regards.....

Jonathan"

And here are three indicators in my parts bins...

The blue faded to the typical grey, the yellow faded to pale yellow, and the white, still crisp and clearly no trace of yellow. All came out of previously unmolested -600X examples...

[img]

Since 1974, when I first was in the jewelry/watch trade, I have never seen a blue or yellow indicator fade to white. The blue goes to a pale grey and the yellow to very pale yellow, both lighter than these examples. The white has always appeared to be a layer of paint, onto which the scale is imprinted.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedefreak
Despite many forays into discussions of the white indicator being a faded yellow, I am still not convinced that Seiko didn't make some indicators in white.

THE "Pogue" is a good argument for as is this note just received form a fellow whose 6139-6005 I worked on this week...

I have first hand knowledge that Pogue's was originally yellow. A friend of mine was in contact with him to iterview him about his watch. I asked my friend to specifically ask if the ring was originally white or yellow. William confirmed it was originally Yellow.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

would it be possible to slice through one of the black markings on the suspected white one and then just look at the cross section under a microscope? only problem being the destruction of the rotating ring which if it turns out to be a genuine white one would be a crying shame,
Oh well,another seiko mystery
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Does this help? If you look at the top of the 0 in the 10, it was scratched and it is yellow underneath? As to what that means, I will let others opine.


And yes, this is a genuine inner bezel that I received on an early 1971 6139-6002, yellow dial. Unfortunately most of the rest of the watch was truly trash.....





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Old 09-07-2012, 05:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

WOW, SYNCHRONICITY OR WHAT :-\


I've restored many 6139-6002s and I've come across a yellow dial that has a WHITE painted internal bezel exactly like the pictures above (I've just finished restoring it today).
Now I'm also interested to know the history behind the white bezel ones, they seem to be exceptionally rare, they are original seiko and often with the yellow dial variants.
i've checked the Catalog for the 70's and have not seen any such examples.
Were some seikos changed during production to have a white bezel to better match the pepsi logo? Were they perhaps a promotional limited edition batch of Seikos?


Cheers

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Old 09-08-2012, 09:10 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question- & Security .

I bought my Gold Dial Seiko Chronometer now called the 'Pogue' in September of 1971 and I can testify that the outer ring on mine was yellow. And my watch dial has not faded in any way over the years. The crystal has been scratched but no dial fade.


At the shop where I ordered this Seiko chronometer, I had originally chosen and ordered the Blue Dial Model but my order arrived from Seiko land with the Gold dial and I made a snap decision to accept this 'special watch' instead of waiting for a 'Blue Dial' and it was always good and lucky for me.
I think I made the right decision. I have had my 'Pogue' serviced several times and was working in good condition last time I removed it from my 'Gun Safe'.
After the first few un-intended crystal scratches I began using a less valued model watch or 'beater' when work or activity might damage a watch to spare this highly prized and pleasing timepiece.


As an apartment dweller, I bought a couple of 'Wally World' Gun safes to safeguard my watch collection and personal papers and records. Good Luck to all and Safe Journey !
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Well I've learned something today at least, don't usually spend much time on posts regarding these model of chrono I personally never bothered with them as even to the uninitiated this is one model that is sold as original and turns out to be nothing like wrong movements wrong hand etc etc, but it was the reference to the word Pogue that I never understood, well after a bit of reading I am now a little wiser, thanks.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloeight
If it's a white ring it's very heavily faded or has been replaced with a reproduction ring. You can pick the faded ones, they have silver printing over white. Reproduction is black printing on a white ring.

How can this be, given Pogue's own watch (the reference piece) has a 'white' (possibly very faded but still slightly yellow) ring with black printing), and supposedly was never modified?


http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...&lotIdNo=32001
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question- May have been serviced & bleached for the white

On the #6139 Chronometer, the watch crown is pulled out 1 click then it rotates the inner ring just as we move the External divers bezel on #6305 & #6309 Divers to mark start & stop timing. The 'Pogue' owned by Lt. Col. Pogue may have been serviced and the inner yellow ring may have been removed and somehow whitened-possibly by some sort of bleaching technique.This is just my guess - I can offer no other explanation. By having a 'white' inner ring -it does personalize this special watch to make it 'unique' in a very special way. My guess only.....I myself have played with the idea of changing the My watch hands to black or blue for more visible stick hands but have decided against altering this good 'buddy' old faithful watch. My guess only.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:14 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Pedals_6Speeds

How can this be, given Pogue's own watch (the reference piece) has a 'white' (possibly very faded but still slightly yellow) ring with black printing), and supposedly was never modified?


http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...&lotIdNo=32001
I'd say that was originally yellow but is heavily faded. I have one in my parts box like that. You scratch the surface and it's yellow underneath. The plastic is some sort of HDPE or something similar. When that gets UV damage, it whitens. The faded layer appears like paint but is actually a coating of UV damaged plastic. Leave any 70's plastic out in the sun here in Australia and it does the same thing within about a week.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:31 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pogue inner bezel question

I think this is the answer:
if you read the article here:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f281/ho...de-140803.html
There is a post by swedefreak who mentions explicitly that some of the earliest yellow and blue dials came with white inner bezels (yellow inner bezel, white painted on top with black printing).
Production was soon changed to to better harmonise the bezel with the dials. This makes sense given all the variants we've seen in our hands with the white painted yellow bezel.



Also, it is highly likely the Pogues OWN version also had a white bezel because in his letter he responds to the inquirer (after being shown a YELLOW bezel variant) that his own one had a DIFFERENT BEZEL!!!



So there you have it. That is the reason why some of us have yellow 6002/6005 with white inner bezels because they were indeed made that way by Seiko.
What else do we know? They were using white bezels in the US and UK market at the very least (variants with and without "Water Resist"). Japan "Speed-Timer" variant unknown.
Or maybe not. Another possible explanation could be that Seiko Service Centers were known for using wrong parts when servicing these watches. Namely the colour of the hands. Could be that if they ran out of yellow rings they used the white painted yellow ring from a different model. For this to be a possibility there must be another watch model that uses the same ring but painted white.



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