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Old 11-12-2019, 11:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Help Evaluating 6139-6002

This is more so to see if I've actually retained the info I learned from the various Pogue threads across SCWF, so apologies in advance if this is a bit redundant to other content. Been in talks with a seller on the internet over the following silver 6139-6002:



There's two things on the watch's face that have me raising an eyebrow. First thing that struck me as off is the chapter ring. The slight yellow tint has me wondering if it's from a gold dial Pogue, as any silver dial examples I've seen have chapter rings that fade to more of a cool gray color. That or they tend to hold their black color if it's an Aussie example. The other thing that I'm confused by is the dial marking "6020T". I've only ever seen Pogue dials marked 6009R/T or 6030R/T - could this be a donor dial from a 6139-6020 "Pulsations"? There appears to be a vertical notch in the 12 o'clock index that would confirm this, but I am less familiar with that model.

If anyone notices anything else suspect please feel free to mention it. I haven't even done a thorough inspection of the bezel insert or case yet as the dial issues stuck out more. Also it is an original crown - the reason why it is sticking out the way it is is because I asked the seller to set the watch to that particular time and date for the photo. I have to imagine they kept the crown out so the watch would be stopped for the pic.

EDIT: Side note, I've read a ton of great guides here and on other sites about the Pogue, but one thing they often gloss over is the "-60##A" marking (ie "-6030T"). Is there a list somewhere of all of the dial codes used by Seiko for the Pogue? Are there others besides -6009 and -6030?

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Old 11-12-2019, 12:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are correct that is a Pulsations dial. Different lume marker pattern and the give-away -6020 dial code


That is a later tapered bracelet so figure it should be a 1974 or later case back.


That is an OEM Seiko bezel and insert - good thing !


The 2-piece seconds hand is not correct but a cool thing.


The inner rotating ring is definitely from a gold dial Pogue faded to current color.


My best bet is they had a gold dial with a lot of aging so they subbed in a Pulsations dial.


All in all, why determine all the background and such ? I suggest you just move on to find another.


Dial codes are in the reference books. Quickie photo attached.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20191112_111028.jpg (270.1 KB, 22 views)

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Old 11-12-2019, 12:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree with Jon although I believe the bezel insert or possibly the whole bezel is aftermarket.


The 80, 85, +90 numerals are to close to the edge and the 140 looks like the aftermarket version.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
All in all, why determine all the background and such ? I suggest you just move on to find another.

Once I noticed the issues I knew I wasnít going to buy. As I said in the OP, I figured this would be a good opportunity to see if I had gotten better at telling these things. First Pogue I ever bought had a fake dial (I promptly returned it and got my money back) so since then Iíve been trying to educate myself.

And thank you for the pic from the reference book! Iíll have to see if I can download a PDF copy for myself




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Old 11-12-2019, 12:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
I agree with Jon although I believe the bezel insert or possibly the whole bezel is aftermarket.


The 80, 85, +90 numerals are to close to the edge and the 140 looks like the aftermarket version.
I was thinking that was wrong as well.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I had actually been thinking about posting that watch in the ďdoes this Pogue look legitĒ thread ... itís obviously a put-together, but what I couldnít figure out was the minimum number of watches required to supply the component parts. My thought was three, but Iím not certain of that.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I had actually been thinking about posting that watch in the ďdoes this Pogue look legitĒ thread ... itís obviously a put-together, but what I couldnít figure out was the minimum number of watches required to supply the component parts. My thought was three, but Iím not certain of that.


What is the communityís typical response in cases like this? Do you tell the seller on the chance that they arenít aware the piece is cobbled together? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so unless itís really obvious a seller is trying to dupe people Iíd like to assume they just donít know better
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with all that's been said. I think this is one to keep well away from. There is really no market for a cobbled together watch like this - not for collectors anyway.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
..
The 80, 85, +90 numerals are to close to the edge.......

I looked at that and I'm seeing the opposite - proper spacing from OD !
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmTheClayman View Post
What is the communityís typical response in cases like this? Do you tell the seller on the chance that they arenít aware the piece is cobbled together? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so unless itís really obvious a seller is trying to dupe people Iíd like to assume they just donít know better

No your job is not to solve world hunger. It won't go well. Walk away and be done with it.


Hard as it is for most of us here to believe, there are many watch collectors out there for whom this watch, at the right price, will make them happy.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
I looked at that and I'm seeing the opposite - proper spacing from OD !

To each his own..........
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Haha, probably as close to a Ferrari as he will ever yet ! Even cars wear Halloween costumes .
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmTheClayman View Post



.. I haven't even done a thorough inspection of the bezel insert or case yet as the dial issues stuck out more.
This is an example of an aftermarket insert, I see the "9" in the "90" very close to the outer diameter.


In your photo I see a bit more space in that area, so that made me think it is OEM along with the seemingly matching vintage-looking wear.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:27 AM   #15 (permalink)
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In my opinion

Fake bracelet
Fake bezel insert
One piece sweep (see two piece mentioned as a bonus)
Pulsations Dial

To summarise it’s fookin awful
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:37 AM   #16 (permalink)
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This post does highlight the problem new guys to collecting can have if the likes of Jon who has had a lot of 6139s go through his hands is struggling to differentiate between OEM and after market and it will get harder i'm sure.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Aftermarket bezel with more space between the 90 and the edge then Jon's aftermarket is showing. All aftermarket bezels are not alike and as time goes on they are getting better + better. On the bezel below the markers even extend below the inner edge just like the originals. The 4 in 140 is also much like the original.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
Aftermarket bezel with more space between the 90 and the edge then Jon's aftermarket is showing. All aftermarket bezels are not alike and as time goes on they are getting better + better. On the bezel below the markers even extend below the inner edge just like the originals. The 4 in 140 is also much like the original.

One of the best I've seen. One could be forgiven for thinking it's the real deal
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Reflex View Post
One of the best I've seen. One could be forgiven for thinking it's the real deal

Forgiveness is a good thing.......
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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OK I see the bezel insert is AM now. But a good one at that.
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