When is a Seiko not a Seiko ? - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default When is a Seiko not a Seiko ?

or any watch not what it pertains to be for that matter ?

By this I mean how much after market/fake parts do we or will we accept before we can no longer accept our original Seiko (any watch) is an "original" example ?

Personally for me after market/generic gaskets, crystals even some inserts are acceptable but thats about it.

For me even if the parts/spares are stupidly expensive but still available how ever long the search I would go for them or go without rather than fit a after market/fake part.

I can see the day coming where the only option will be after market parts if you want to make a watch look usable but still won't be for me, I would rather go without, anal perhaps but i've been called a lot worse
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hi John - I think these two images sum up your thread.

However, I think original movement + original case qualify the watch as a Seiko. Those are the two main components IMO. Hands, dial and crown could be considered consumable items based upon how they seem to wear heavier than other parts of the watch and often need replacing.

I think the bigger question (and with heated debate) comes down to what is considered an "original Seiko".
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I would say we have to use non OEM gaskets.

Crystals/glass are difficult because we don't really know if they are original or OEM even. I only replace when the old is beyond repair and refinish where possible.

A 3rd party dial would kill it for me BUT replacing a damaged OEM dial with a close OEM equivalent dial, well I have done it once but only when absolutely to only option.

As for movement parts well I would fit OEM from another movement.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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For me the movement and case hands dial inserts need to be original, the bracelet \ strap are marginal, the crystal \ gaskets i will accept as A.M. Call me picky

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Old 11-07-2019, 02:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Anything more than gaskets and crystal....I'll live with the rest being original Seiko. A watch doesn't have to look new for me.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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If this is a vintage watch, then I allow the exchange of the original crown, glass, gasket, mass, and small parts of the mechanism.
Bracelet, of course, too.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Forgive my nerdiness, but we're far from the first to ask this question outside of the watch context. See here.

I'm among those who generally won't replace anything other than a bracelet/strap with anything non-OEM - keeps things simpler even if harder!
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
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This is the watch fan’s equivalent of the old philosophical problem about replacing every piece of timber on a ship haha.

That being said I’m of the opinion that AM gaskets, crystals and (for applicable models) pusher springs are acceptable. Also bracelets if we’re considering those, as I’ve had some bad luck with original bracelet quality
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Original Seiko are only those made in Japan, those made in China are fakes (a joke)

These are only items, with time their parts are destroyed, and the original ones are missing on the market.
The one with the replaced parts will still be Seiko, only less worth than 100% original.
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I've still got the original gas and oil in my 67 Camaro and the Paint is old and dull but It's all original I tell Ya!


Kidding aside, Original parts are great but I have no problem replacing normal wear parts like crystals + gaskets with "Good Quality" replacement parts. Replacement dials, hands, and bezel inserts are a last resort and I refrain from using them.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
I've still got the original gas and oil in my 67 Camaro and the Paint is old and dull but It's all original I tell Ya!


Kidding aside, Original parts are great but I have no problem replacing normal wear parts like crystals + gaskets with "Good Quality" replacement parts. Replacement dials, hands, and bezel inserts are a last resort and I refrain from using them.
I'm with you on this, except I don't own a 67 Camaro. (but I do own a lovely 1970 Dodge Challenger Convertible )

The only red line for me is dials. I will never accept an am (fake) dial. That's it. I think the aftermarket offers a great service for other items when the quality is right. (similar with classic cars)
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:48 AM   #13 (permalink)
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As soon as anything is replaced it is no longer original to itself, and if not a Seiko part, no longer original. Even gaskets, spring bars, crystals, spring balls. It is restored. Those that think changing a crystal is fine but a relume or bezel change isn't, are hypocrites.
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Old 11-08-2019, 04:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
I'm with you on this, except I don't own a 67 Camaro. (but I do own a lovely 1970 Dodge Challenger Convertible )

The only red line for me is dials. I will never accept an am (fake) dial. That's it. I think the aftermarket offers a great service for other items when the quality is right. (similar with classic cars)





Agreed re AM. It's a boon for Seikos etc as long as people are honest about them.
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Old 11-08-2019, 04:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJ View Post
As soon as anything is replaced it is no longer original to itself, and if not a Seiko part, no longer original. Even gaskets, spring bars, crystals, spring balls. It is restored. Those that think changing a crystal is fine but a relume or bezel change isn't, are hypocrites.





Agreed too


I guess some of us have an idea that what can be seen as a service item (s/bars, battery, strap, seals, glass.....etc) can be ok to replace and the watch still be "original".
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If it has anything on it with the Seiko logo that Seiko didnt make. So dial, case and movement.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJ View Post
As soon as anything is replaced it is no longer original to itself, and if not a Seiko part, no longer original. Even gaskets, spring bars, crystals, spring balls. It is restored. Those that think changing a crystal is fine but a relume or bezel change isn't, are hypocrites.
Depends weather it is an AM crystal or OEM crystal, that makes a vital difference in your example. I prefer a (lightly) scratched original crystal over an AM one. But i think crystals have always been kind of made as a "consumable" item meant to be changed out. If you look at the number of NOS crystals that Seiko made vs the number of NOS bezels or dials for example, there are a lot more crystals on the market.

Gaskets and spring bars are a whole different story because those are used to keep the watch safe from falling off your wrist and protect against moisture. So for the sake of longevity they should be changed every once in a while. That more than justifies chaging those parts out.

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Old 11-08-2019, 07:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJ View Post
As soon as anything is replaced it is no longer original to itself, and if not a Seiko part, no longer original. Even gaskets, spring bars, crystals, spring balls. It is restored. Those that think changing a crystal is fine but a relume or bezel change isn't, are hypocrites.



Well, it's not original, nobody denies it ...
The title of the topic is different ....
it's still Seiko ... with a non-original crystal, bracelet ....

If a man insert a pacemaker, he ceases to be an "original man"?
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:17 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.YODA View Post
Well, it's not original, nobody denies it ...
The title of the topic is different ....
it's still Seiko ... with a non-original crystal, bracelet ....

If a man insert a pacemaker, he ceases to be an "original man"?





"If a man insert a pacemaker," and it's his own body....he's a super man!!
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzwatchdoctor View Post
"If a man insert a pacemaker," and it's his own body....he's a super man!!



Full consent my friend!

I bought a Japanese knife (Myiabi), I bought a Japanese watch (Seiko), I also bought a Japanese lighter (Corona)
What connects these items?

And they were all made in China ....
Such times .... nomen omen
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Normal service parts like gaskets, even a crystal or changing a strap is still a Seiko. Those are wear and tear consumable items. Like changing gaskets, brake liners, etc. in a vintage car. Those are parts that are meant to be replaced, need to be replaced on a regular schedule. The moment you put in after market parts it becomes a mod. Like a dial, insert, etc
Incorrect Seiko parts and it's a Franken. My opinion anyways.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My personal preference is pure stock on the watch, with the exception of different straps/bracelets.

This is not a knock on those who like and do mods as I've seen some very subtle and tastefully done ones, but once it doesn't resemble the stock from which it started, it's no longer a Seiko imo.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I remember Guy bringing up the ship of Theseus the last time this came up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJ View Post
Ah but then that watch wouldn't be original.

I'm being facetious, I know. But the Ship of Theseus, or Trigger's Broom, is an interesting quandary.

I agree though Paul, being able to source movement parts at the least would be great if still possible, let alone knowing Seiko could do it with genuine replacements. But like John's thread about standardisation and as David says, that foresight wasn't there and I'd imagine it is simply not possible to do this.

I also think they are making enough money as things stand.

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