King Seiko 4502 question - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Ė Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default King Seiko 4502 question

Hi all,

I just bought a manual wind King Seiko 4502 and noticed something a little odd. The movement does not start until it is fully wound,it only starts moving after I have fully wound the crown and begin to feel resistance. I don't think it is solely because of the 36,000 bph spring because I also have a 36,000 Lord Marvel that does not exhibit this behavior.

Has anyone experienced this before?
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I have had some vintage Seiko hand-wind watches that would not start on their own after I wound them a bit. I would pull the crown out then push it back in and they would start.


The watches ran fine otherwise, so I was okay with that behavior. I usually had to set the time anyway, so it was not a big imposition.


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Old 09-16-2019, 04:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Winding King Seiko's 5246-5000

Hi Dan Welcome from the Great City to this Great Forum

My 5246-5000 KS starts up with only a few winds.

45-8010 KS Chronometer needs close to a full Wind.
It seems compared to Vintage GS same years 1967 to 1971
they are also Hi Beat but need much lees wind to get Going?
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Maybe the oil is getting a bit dry and offering some resistance to it going.



If it keeps going well = enjoy


If it starts losing time or stopping it'll need an overhaul.
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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For a 45 it's normal to start only when fully wound, that's how you know you have a healthy movement, enjoy it
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by best_x_treme View Post
For a 45 it's normal to start only when fully wound, that's how you know you have a healthy movement, enjoy it



No


That would be like saying a car only starts when it has a full tank of petrol.



Healthy mechanical movements start with very little power from the mainspring. " that's how you know you have a healthy movement"
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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From an old thread:
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Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
I've found it normal to have a 45 movement not self-start until an absolute full wind is achieved, on a properly serviced movement that is perfectly in beat. this is due to the escapement geometry and very strong hairspring. You can short-cut this if desired by pulling the crown out and pushing back in, as the hacking lever is designed to give the balance a rotational nudge as it retracts out of the way.
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well done best_x_treme !!!

BTW I give my manual winders a quick shake to get the balance going before I start to hand wind them just because it seems less stressful although it probably isn't I just do out that way.

My 4502 is no exception.

Last edited by Grammarofdesign; 09-17-2019 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
Well done best_x_treme !!!

BTW I give my manual winders a quick shake to get the balance going before I start to hand wind them just because it seems less stressful although it probably isn't I just do out that way.

My 4502 is no exception.


Thatís a beautiful watch.

I was going to posit that the mainspring barrels on the 36k watches canít be opened for service, so the ancient grease becomes sludge which only the force of a fully wound spring can overcome, but that was just a wild as guess and apparently completely wrong. Cíest la internet....


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Old 09-17-2019, 09:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the replies, this was very informative.

I actually have an additional question. The watch does not hack and the watchmaker who just serviced it before I bought it explained that the setting lever was missing and a replacement is not currently available. I looked online and found the parts list for the 4502 movement here:
http://tech.gleaveandco.com/tech-she...edirects=0&d=1

It lists part 391450 as the "second-setting lever". I found this part on ebay here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-4500-...-/400935494502

Does anyone know if this would be the correct part?

Thanks,
Dan
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Kulprit;2824109]Thatís a beautiful watch.

I was going to posit that the mainspring barrels on the 36k watches canít be opened for service, so the ancient grease becomes sludge which only the force of a fully wound spring can overcome, but that was just a wild as guess and apparently completely wrong. Cíest la internet....


You're right re the grease but even half wound etc they still have enough grunt to get the watch going
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFromNewYork View Post
Thanks for all the replies, this was very informative.

I actually have an additional question. The watch does not hack and the watchmaker who just serviced it before I bought it explained that the setting lever was missing and a replacement is not currently available. I looked online and found the parts list for the 4502 movement here:
http://tech.gleaveandco.com/tech-she...edirects=0&d=1

It lists part 391450 as the "second-setting lever". I found this part on ebay here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-4500-...-/400935494502

Does anyone know if this would be the correct part?

Thanks,
Dan



If it is the correct part and he only has one left - you'd better buy it!!
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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[quote=nzwatchdoctor;2824353]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulprit View Post
Thatís a beautiful watch.

I was going to posit that the mainspring barrels on the 36k watches canít be opened for service, so the ancient grease becomes sludge which only the force of a fully wound spring can overcome, but that was just a wild as guess and apparently completely wrong. Cíest la internet....


You're right re the grease but even half wound etc they still have enough grunt to get the watch going
Paul, it would be best to speak from knowledge instead of guessing, repeatedly. I've got several of the 45xx models, have serviced them all with new mainsprings, and can confirm that they will not self-start until fully wound. Yes, this is different than most other calibers, but so is the 45xx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFromNewYork View Post
Thanks for all the replies, this was very informative.

I actually have an additional question. The watch does not hack and the watchmaker who just serviced it before I bought it explained that the setting lever was missing and a replacement is not currently available. I looked online and found the parts list for the 4502 movement here:
http://tech.gleaveandco.com/tech-she...edirects=0&d=1

It lists part 391450 as the "second-setting lever". I found this part on ebay here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-4500-...-/400935494502

Does anyone know if this would be the correct part?

Thanks,
Dan
Hi Dan,
The 45xx has a three-part second-setting lever, so you'd need to know which one(s) is(are) missing. They are 391450, 717450, and 581450- upper right and two lower left in the screen capture below.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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[quote=rileynp;2824369]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nzwatchdoctor View Post
Hi Dan,
The 45xx has a three-part second-setting lever, so you'd need to know which one(s) is(are) missing. They are 391450, 717450, and 581450- upper right and two lower left in the screen capture below.
Thanks. I was able to snag 391450 off ebay but haven't found the other two yet.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
Well done best_x_treme !!!

BTW I give my manual winders a quick shake to get the balance going before I start to hand wind them just because it seems less stressful although it probably isn't I just do out that way.

My 4502 is no exception.
So I took this as an opportunity to learn. I started winding my 4502 and counted 50 finger rolls (roughly 25 turns) and on the very last finger roll before it couldnít be wound anymore - BAM! - she started right up! Just like
Noah said it would.

It then proceeded to run 38 hours 18 minutes before stopping out of power.

So I learned about a treasured vintage Seiko KS and like it all the more for this new appreciation.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:32 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
So I took this as an opportunity to learn. I started winding my 4502 and counted 50 finger rolls (roughly 25 turns) and on the very last finger roll before it couldnít be wound anymore - BAM! - she started right up! Just like
Noah said it would.

It then proceeded to run 38 hours 18 minutes before stopping out of power.

So I learned about a treasured vintage Seiko KS and like it all the more for this new appreciation.
38 hours seems to be below its specs ?
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:33 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
Well done best_x_treme !!!

BTW I give my manual winders a quick shake to get the balance going before I start to hand wind them just because it seems less stressful although it probably isn't I just do out that way.

My 4502 is no exception.
I do the reverse - wind then shake. But these are on non -seiko watches ( mostly old Swiss and American handcranks)
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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38 hours seems to be below its specs ?
My God it's an old watch !!!
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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38 hours seems to be below its specs ?
Do you have a link to specs on the 45xx power reserve? Barring that, Iíll wind a few up and see what I see. Will update in a few days.
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarofdesign View Post
My God it's an old watch !!!

Haha yes it is. I don't have the specs for the 45 family, they're sadly not on Dr. Ranfft's incredible site. My experience with several hand wind Seikos is consistent with a 40 hour minimum (my 5740A is champion, with regular 49 hour 20 minute performances) so I thought the 45 series would be in that neighborhood. Then again the 45 is high beat so it burns power faster ?
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
Do you have a link to specs on the 45xx power reserve? Barring that, Iíll wind a few up and see what I see. Will update in a few days.
No, just expectations based on experience with other Seiko handcranks. I do look forward to the results of your experiment
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Old 10-03-2019, 07:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It's been awhile since I've serviced any of these, but my 45xx watches (six of them) all showed power reserves in the 43-44 hour range, dial up. That's better than I expected, since I've noticed the contemporary 614x hi-beat calibers get about 38-39 hours at best. I suspect the lower potential of the 61 hi-beats owes to them being built on the lower beat 6106 framework (so the barrel capacity and barrel tooth count is fixed), whereas the 45xx movement seems to be more of a blank slate design, from the ground up.
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rileynp View Post
It's been awhile since I've serviced any of these, but my 45xx watches (six of them) all showed power reserves in the 43-44 hour range, dial up. That's better than I expected, since I've noticed the contemporary 614x hi-beat calibers get about 38-39 hours at best. I suspect the lower potential of the 61 hi-beats owes to them being built on the lower beat 6106 framework (so the barrel capacity and barrel tooth count is fixed), whereas the 45xx movement seems to be more of a blank slate design, from the ground up.
Thank you Noah
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