Why is it okay to fake a bracelet but is it not done to fake a watch? - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Why is it okay to fake a bracelet but is it not done to fake a watch?

Continuing the discussing from this thread here:
https://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japa...bracelets.html

It has been something that i have been surprised at for a while. Many people dont seem to care about replica's when it comes to bracelet. I am not talking talking about aftermarket bracelet producers like Uncle Seiko who use their own logo. But im talking about people selling reproduction bracelets WITH the Seiko logo's.

To me that is 100% wrong, no question about it. They are using a logo and name which isnt theirs to use. Its exactly the same as folks making replica watches, however that is something we will all agree on is not okay. So why the difference between bracelets/straps and watches?
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koekoek View Post
Continuing the discussing from this thread here:
https://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japa...bracelets.html

It has been something that i have been surprised at for a while. Many people dont seem to care about replica's when it comes to bracelet. I am not talking talking about aftermarket bracelet producers like Uncle Seiko who use their own logo. But im talking about people selling reproduction bracelets WITH the Seiko logo's.

To me that is 100% wrong, no question about it. They are using a logo and name which isnt theirs to use. Its exactly the same as folks making replica watches, however that is something we will all agree on is not okay. So why the difference between bracelets/straps and watches?
Apparently there is a double standard going on here.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:02 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I'd rather have a quality Uncle Seiko bracelet with his logo than a nice looking fake. But I've probably got a minority standpoint.
Bigger problems arises when unscrupulous sellers start selling "NOS speedtimer bracelets in awesome condition" for very high prices to unsuspecting buyers.
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dutchsiberia View Post
I'd rather have a quality Uncle Seiko bracelet with his logo than a nice looking fake. But I've probably got a minority standpoint.
Bigger problems arises when unscrupulous sellers start selling "NOS speedtimer bracelets in awesome condition" for very high prices to unsuspecting buyers.
That would be the only real issue I’d have with a replica, but as long as it’s presented for what it is, in case with this new am speedtimer replica bracelet I’m glad is available. It completes an original aesthetic look, as with the jdm speedies.
Second best option, I would rather have a sterile bracelet then Uncle Seiko or east tech written on exterior of bracelet, that’s sort of intrusive to original aesthetic. My opinion.
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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You use 3 different terms in your post, fake, replica and reproduction. All 3 terms have different meanings.
Replica= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, with the o.e manufacturers permission.
Fake= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, without the o.e manufacturers permission.
Reproduction= made in the style of the original.


So are you talking about repro, replica or fake?
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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i really don't care whether or not a bracelet or strap is an exact replica or not because it's a disposable item. if it's not in the watch itself, i really don't care what is or isn't on a strap or bracelet as long as it keeps the watch on my wrist.


in fact, if i have to buy what you term as "fake" and it's cheaper than one that is sterilized, you can guess which one i'm buying assuming the quality of each is equal. at the end of the day, there are only a few straps/bracelets that are worth more than buck and i'm not going to worry about it one way or the other. =)


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Old 08-10-2019, 06:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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In addition to being illegal, fakes devalue the originals. If you own an original Speedtimer bracelet, the existence of the fake makes it worth less money
A) because folks are less willing to pay a premium for the real one because a good cheap alternative exists
B) because buyers are more worried about the authenticity of your real bracelet and won't pay as big of a premium for fear it's fake

In other words, it's unfair to owners of the real thing. It's also unfair to the Seiko Corporation

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Old 08-10-2019, 06:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Why is it okay to fake a bracelet but is it not done to fake a watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorbiggin View Post
You use 3 different terms in your post, fake, replica and reproduction. All 3 terms have different meanings.
Replica= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, with the o.e manufacturers permission.
Fake= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, without the o.e manufacturers permission.
Reproduction= made in the style of the original.


So are you talking about repro, replica or fake?


Are you asking me Ivor?
Well, I didn’t use fake but is quoted.
Regardless of terminology, I meant, I don’t mind a fake, replica, or copy as long as is not presented as original in regards to the bracelet mentioned.
And as far as ‘reproduction’, I would prefer a sterile exterior as it gets in way of the original aesthetic experience, or style of original.
Ps: Like I’ve said, my opinion on that specific and lieu of a hard to find original, which is always best but not always available.
I have a 6139-6030 that would benefit from one.



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Old 08-10-2019, 07:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynaldo View Post
Are you asking me Ivor?
Well, I didn’t use fake but is quoted.
Regardless of terminology, I meant, I don’t mind a fake, replica, or copy as long as is not presented as original in regards to the bracelet mentioned.
And as far as ‘reproduction’, I would prefer a sterile exterior as it gets in way of the original aesthetic experience, or style of original. Like I’ve said, my opinion.


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No Rey, i was posing that to Koekoek.

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Old 08-10-2019, 07:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorbiggin View Post
No Rey, i was posing that to Koekoek. He's made the assumption that the bracelet is fake. It probably is, but id like to see on what evidence he's made that assumption.


Oh ok, well I’m not eloquent or clear on describing things. Interesting topic, though.


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Old 08-10-2019, 07:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Personally i don’t see the Issue here as firstly this is the world we live in,Fakes Replicas are abundant in most things these days and whether I agree with the manufacturing of these or Not “I don’t have to buy them” neither do you🤔
As for a Bracelets being Faked or replicated again Who Cares!! As again you don’t have to buy them,How many replace original bracelets on Seikos/Citizens
with a Nato Or Zulu? Are they Fake? Each to their own but you cannot compare a watch Fake to a Bracelet fake as the Watch is the Brunt of the purchase not what shoes it has on.
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynaldo View Post
Oh ok, well I’m not eloquent or clear on describing things. Interesting topic, though.

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Old 08-10-2019, 07:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorbiggin View Post
You use 3 different terms in your post, fake, replica and reproduction. All 3 terms have different meanings.
Replica= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, with the o.e manufacturers permission.
Fake= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, without the o.e manufacturers permission.
Reproduction= made in the style of the original.


So are you talking about repro, replica or fake?
If it's on someone else's watch it's a fake, if it's on mine it's a replica.

When it's your watch, you can do whatever you like.

The important thing is that any known fake parts are disclosed when it is sold.
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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It's like having a reframed painting....the frame has no intrinsic value, but the picture is an original. I could go on..
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheNeilo1 View Post
Personally i don’t see the Issue here as firstly this is the world we live in,Fakes Replicas are abundant in most things these days and whether I agree with the manufacturing of these or Not “I don’t have to buy them” neither do you

As for a Bracelets being Faked or replicated again Who Cares!! As again you don’t have to buy them,How many replace original bracelets on Seikos/Citizens

with a Nato Or Zulu? Are they Fake? Each to their own but you cannot compare a watch Fake to a Bracelet fake as the Watch is the Brunt of the purchase not what shoes it has on.
Say you've patiently saved and shopped and bought a Speedtimer on an original bracelet. A year later you decide to sell it on eBay. At the same time another seller lists the same model watch in the same condition but with an aftermarket bracelet, which looks like yours, but does not say "Seiko".
No fakes exist at this point, so potential sellers see your watch as a nicer piece by virtue of it's bracelet and pay $1,200 for your watch. The one with the aftermarket bracelet sells for $1,000
Scenario 2: this time there are fakes on the market. You list yours with it's original bracelet, and the other guy lists his with a fake bracelet. In this scenario he admits in the listing that the bracelet is not authentic. Now buyers, who are aware of the presence of fakes, aren't 100% sure yours is original. Your watch sells for $1,100 and the other guy's sells for $1,000. You've been cheated of $100.
Scenario 3. Same as above but this time the other guy claims his fake bracelet is real. Buyers don't know your watch is better than his and know that either has a high probability of being fake. You're now in direct competition with him because you're selling the exact same product from the point of view of the buyer, and competing head-to-head on price. Both watches sell for $1,000 and you've been cheated out of $200.

Don't buy fakes. You're screwing your fellow collectors.

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Old 08-10-2019, 07:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The bracelet that renewed this discussion on Fake verses Real is the aftermarket Speedtimer bracelet that recently became available. The Seller clearly listed it as an aftermarket bracelet and I don't have a problem with that. If you don't have an original bracelet, it's a bracelet that can be substituted for a bracelet that is extremely hard to find.

I don't think it devalues an original bracelet whatsoever. There are tons of 6139 "H" link bracelets with Seiko on the clasp and you still see original examples selling for $85 to $100.
Unfortunately it does open an avenue for Frauds to offer them as original which is already taking place with this Speedtimer bracelet. That is one of the reasons behind my thread on this particular bracelet. To help those in the market for a Speedtimer bracelet, to be able to tell the difference between the Original and the Aftermarket or have the option to choose the available aftermarket copy if they prefer.

I'm in this hobby to enjoy restoring Seiko's, to share information on vintage Seikos, available parts oem or aftermarket, and enjoy what "I" like in my own watches, not what others "suggest" I should like or accept. I often times put an original Seiko clasp on an aftermarket bracelet. It's not to fool anyone. It's to have the Seiko logo on my Seiko watch.

It's just a matter of personal preference........
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Aftermarket parts that can be passed off as genuine original is dangerous, it is fraud waiting to happen.
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I use fake (I'm not happy that they have to use the oe name etc but when needs must...) bracelets on customer's watches or to complete a watch I've done up to sell.

I tell the customer / buyer it's fake.


When the original is missing, too short, too beaten up, unavailable, horrendously expensive etc the fake is really the only option to complete the watch and make it look and feel as it should be
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by chenpofu View Post
Aftermarket parts that can be passed off as genuine original is dangerous, it is fraud waiting to happen.





It's not "fraud waiting to happen". It is fraud.



In what way is passing "genuine original" "dangerous"?
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeikoPsycho2 View Post
The bracelet that renewed this discussion on Fake verses Real is the aftermarket Speedtimer bracelet that recently became available. The Seller clearly listed it as an aftermarket bracelet and I don't have a problem with that. If you don't have an original bracelet, it's a bracelet that can be substituted for a bracelet that is extremely hard to find.

I don't think it devalues an original bracelet whatsoever. There are tons of 6139 "H" link bracelets with Seiko on the clasp and you still see original examples selling for $85 to $100.
Unfortunately it does open an avenue for Frauds to offer them as original which is already taking place with this Speedtimer bracelet. That is one of the reasons behind my thread on this particular bracelet. To help those in the market for a Speedtimer bracelet, to be able to tell the difference between the Original and the Aftermarket or have the option to choose the available aftermarket copy if they prefer.

I'm in this hobby to enjoy restoring Seiko's, to share information on vintage Seikos, available parts oem or aftermarket, and enjoy what "I" like in my own watches, not what others "suggest" I should like or accept. I often times put an original Seiko clasp on an aftermarket bracelet. It's not to fool anyone. It's to have the Seiko logo on my Seiko watch.

It's just a matter of personal preference........
Well said Tom!
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradurani View Post
Say you've patiently saved and shopped and bought a Speedtimer on an original bracelet. A year later you decide to sell it on eBay. At the same time another seller lists the same model watch in the same condition but with an aftermarket bracelet, which looks like yours, but does not say "Seiko".
No fakes exist at this point, so potential sellers see your watch as a nicer piece by virtue of it's bracelet and pay $1,200 for your watch. The one with the aftermarket bracelet sells for $1,000
Scenario 2: this time there are fakes on the market. You list yours with it's original bracelet, and the other guy lists his with a fake bracelet. In this scenario he admits in the listing that the bracelet is not authentic. Now buyers, who are aware of the presence of fakes, aren't 100% sure yours is original. Your watch sells for $1,100 and the other guy's sells for $1,000. You've been cheated of $100.
Scenario 3. Same as above but this time the other guy claims his fake bracelet is real. Buyers don't know your watch is better than his and know that either has a high probability of being fake. You're now in direct competition with him because you're selling the exact same product from the point of view of the buyer, and competing head-to-head on price. Both watches sell for $1,000 and you've been cheated out of $200.

Don't buy fakes. You're screwing your fellow collectors.

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I Do hope your not directing those Comments at me????? Especially the Last comment “Don't buy Fakes”?
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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IP theft is IP theft!
No matter if it is the logo on a dial or the same logo on a bracelet!

Earlier I suggested that there might be a double standard and with most of the responses to the OP's post; it is evident that this is true.

Since Seiko does not seem to give a rats as about it; why should we care or get our shorts all bunched up?
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What do we do with old vintage watches when the aftermarket AKA fake dials are just as good and exactly mimic the original Factory dials that are irreplaceable?

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Old 08-10-2019, 09:41 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spilled Fluids View Post
IP theft is IP theft!
No matter if it is the logo on a dial or the same logo on a bracelet!

Earlier I suggested that there might be a double standard and with most of the responses to the OP's post; it is evident that this is true.

Since Seiko does not seem to give a rats as about it; why should we care or get our shorts all bunched up?
My point exactly Peter👍👏👏👏
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