Why is it okay to fake a bracelet but is it not done to fake a watch? - Page 4 - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:56 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Interesting.

Rather like discussing the three legitimate areas of watches, White, Grey or Black. All parts of a Watch and / or Bracelet will wear out or break at some stage of their life, how you replace each of those parts and what you replace them with is your own decision, based on your circumstances at the time. Do you replace the bracelet, but keep the clasp, or go the whole hog.???

If you reside in the UK and have watched OFAH, then the following will make sense.

Heroes and Villains (1996)
Trigger, Del, Rodder's, Sid and Boycie chatting in Sid's cafe. Trigger has just been presented with an award for saving the council money.

Trigger: And that's what I've done. Maintained it for 20 years. This old brooms had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
Sid: How the hell can it be the same bloody broom then?
Trigger: There's the picture. What more proof do you need?


Or as someone once said to me, "is that a replica fake homage".!!!
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:12 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EDGlimited View Post
Interesting.

Rather like discussing the three legitimate areas of watches, White, Grey or Black. All parts of a Watch and / or Bracelet will wear out or break at some stage of their life, how you replace each of those parts and what you replace them with is your own decision, based on your circumstances at the time. Do you replace the bracelet, but keep the clasp, or go the whole hog.???

If you reside in the UK and have watched OFAH, then the following will make sense.

Heroes and Villains (1996)
Trigger, Del, Rodder's, Sid and Boycie chatting in Sid's cafe. Trigger has just been presented with an award for saving the council money.

Trigger: And that's what I've done. Maintained it for 20 years. This old brooms had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
Sid: How the hell can it be the same bloody broom then?
Trigger: There's the picture. What more proof do you need?


Or as someone once said to me, "is that a replica fake homage".!!!
I love the broom story!!!!!
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:45 PM   #78 (permalink)
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I love the broom story!!!!!
Exactly, some people could apply that same theory to their own watch, "yes it's had 17 new bracelets and 14 new clasps, I've maintained it for 20 years, but it's till the same Seiko". Wanna see a pic.!!!
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:06 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spilled Fluids View Post
IP theft is IP theft!
No matter if it is the logo on a dial or the same logo on a bracelet!

Earlier I suggested that there might be a double standard and with most of the responses to the OP's post; it is evident that this is true.

Since Seiko does not seem to give a rats as about it; why should we care or get our shorts all bunched up?

Knickers bunch up, Peter. Shorts, well, they tend to result in wedgies

Can I complicate the matter further? Wasn't there a time when Seikos were sold with Stellux bracelets as original kit? Now, would these be fakes to a purist?
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:28 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 850champion View Post
Knickers bunch up, Peter. Shorts, well, they tend to result in wedgies



Can I complicate the matter further? Wasn't there a time when Seikos were sold with Stellux bracelets as original kit? Now, would these be fakes to a purist?
No

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Old 08-16-2019, 02:57 AM   #81 (permalink)
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I think a fake seller or buyer are more danger 😂😂👌
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Old 08-19-2019, 05:23 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I look at this as a needed service,
Much like restoring a 50 year old car.

If the parent company is not going to make OEM replacement parts, how do we restore them?

You can split hairs even further.

This watch is a NOS serviced movement,
With all other parts NOS or factory replacement from Omega. Basically, a 1968 movement and case with all new replacement Omega parts assembled into a new watch.
It’s not really a 1968 Omega SM300,
But it has all the parts of one made by Omega.
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:03 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I think I get it now, from this thread as well as many other threads related to fake parts. It is totally okay to use fake parts if I am the one doing it, but anyone else, especially those selling watches with fake parts on ebay, are scums.

Last edited by chenpofu; 08-19-2019 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:22 AM   #84 (permalink)
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No.
At least that is not what I am saying.

If Seiko made all the parts still to service, say, a 62MAS or 6105,
We would use them to restore one.

Possibly even build a whole watch out of them.

In cases where they no longer make the parts,
Especially external parts like a crown or bracelet, we will buy reproductions.

In the same way your 1969 Dodge Charger has an original engine, transmission, frame, etc. you can’t fake those and have a real Dodge Charger.

But if Dodge no longer makes a front fender or rims, windshield, reproductions are appropriate.

The case, movement, dial, etc. not made by Seiko seem to be a fake.
A new crystal and bracelet or band refurbishing an original are a needed service.

Refurb
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:06 AM   #85 (permalink)
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I think I get it now, from this thread as well as many other threads related to fake parts. It is totally okay to use fake parts if I am the one doing it, but anyone else, especially those selling watches with fake parts on ebay, are scums.
Ahh No. There is no problem selling a watch with AM parts as long as the seller accurately describes which parts are AM. The only time someone here is going to take issue is when a seller describes the watch as original when it is not. If the seller has no description, that's fine too as it is up to the buyer to figure out what's going on. I could keep listening various scenarios here but I can't be shagged.

At the end of the day its up to the buyer to know their shit. Every used item comes with an element of risk. Judging that risk correctly is what seperate a bad collector from a skilled one.

I think you see this as a black and white issue. But it's not, there are a thousand shades of grey relating to this topic. It's a forum of buyers, sellers, collectors, watchmakers, tinkers and the odd turd; each with their own ideas relating to AM parts.

Another 2 cents...
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:19 AM   #86 (permalink)
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This thread was about fake parts, defined as parts that illegally have a manufacturer's name on them in violation of trademark law.
I don't think anyone was against aftermarket parts.

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Old 08-20-2019, 01:30 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bradurani View Post
This thread was about fake parts, defined as parts that illegally have a manufacturer's name on them in violation of trademark law.
I don't think anyone was against aftermarket parts.

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What you call a fake part is a subset of after market parts. It's an after market part with a reproduction of the Seiko logo added to it. Its only a problem if the holder of the intellectual property sees it as a problem, which obviously they don't.
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:32 AM   #88 (permalink)
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It is true that many people don't quite know why fake watches are illegal, or that they are illegal. Watch makers surprisingly don't have copyright protection on the design of their watches. I am not going to get into a long intellectual property discussion, but the issue is that while designs are something you can protect, things that are "functional" need to be protected under patent law, not copyright. Patents filed long ago have since expired, or there is so much copying going on between brands, that nothing is "original" any longer. What brands can protect however is their name and logo. If it's not protected in a country they don't sell too, then fakes will abound. China is a classic for copycat and copyright infringement. India for example uses tooling and machinery long discarded by genuine watch manufacturers. 2nd's or parts that fail to pass compliance are bought by the bucket load by scrap merchants and sold to fakers for "meltdown" (yeah right) and used in fakes.

Those fall under trademark protection and cannot be copied legally. So what fakes are actually doing is illegally copying a name and logo, as well as other trademarked elements that are designed to tell people who made the watch. The number of elements on any given watch that can be copied legally is surprisingly numerous. This is why even legitimate brands end up "flattering" each other by borrowing design elements all the time.

There is an old saying...."If after knowing that fake watches are illegal, poor quality, make you look foolish... but you still want one, then go ahead. You are probably doing it in an effort to wear a status symbol that will appear authentic to uneducated people of a low status".
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:39 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EDGlimited View Post
It is true that many people don't quite know why fake watches are illegal, or that they are illegal. Watch makers surprisingly don't have copyright protection on the design of their watches. I am not going to get into a long intellectual property discussion, but the issue is that while designs are something you can protect, things that are "functional" need to be protected under patent law, not copyright. Patents filed long ago have since expired, or there is so much copying going on between brands, that nothing is "original" any longer. What brands can protect however is their name and logo. If it's not protected in a country they don't sell too, then fakes will abound. China is a classic for copycat and copyright infringement. India for example uses tooling and machinery long discarded by genuine watch manufacturers. 2nd's or parts that fail to pass compliance are bought by the bucket load by scrap merchants and sold to fakers for "meltdown" (yeah right) and used in fakes.

Those fall under trademark protection and cannot be copied legally. So what fakes are actually doing is illegally copying a name and logo, as well as other trademarked elements that are designed to tell people who made the watch. The number of elements on any given watch that can be copied legally is surprisingly numerous. This is why even legitimate brands end up "flattering" each other by borrowing design elements all the time.

There is an old saying...."If after knowing that fake watches are illegal, poor quality, make you look foolish... but you still want one, then go ahead. You are probably doing it in an effort to wear a status symbol that will appear authentic to uneducated people of a low status".



I like that.
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:40 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EDGlimited View Post
It is true that many people don't quite know why fake watches are illegal, or that they are illegal. Watch makers surprisingly don't have copyright protection on the design of their watches. I am not going to get into a long intellectual property discussion, but the issue is that while designs are something you can protect, things that are "functional" need to be protected under patent law, not copyright. Patents filed long ago have since expired, or there is so much copying going on between brands, that nothing is "original" any longer. What brands can protect however is their name and logo. If it's not protected in a country they don't sell too, then fakes will abound. China is a classic for copycat and copyright infringement. India for example uses tooling and machinery long discarded by genuine watch manufacturers. 2nd's or parts that fail to pass compliance are bought by the bucket load by scrap merchants and sold to fakers for "meltdown" (yeah right) and used in fakes.

Those fall under trademark protection and cannot be copied legally. So what fakes are actually doing is illegally copying a name and logo, as well as other trademarked elements that are designed to tell people who made the watch. The number of elements on any given watch that can be copied legally is surprisingly numerous. This is why even legitimate brands end up "flattering" each other by borrowing design elements all the time.

There is an old saying...."If after knowing that fake watches are illegal, poor quality, make you look foolish... but you still want one, then go ahead. You are probably doing it in an effort to wear a status symbol that will appear authentic to uneducated people of a low status".



Reference quote or it's not worth the speech marks it in.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:43 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Man, and I thought this hobby was going to be Fun..........


Don't get your Panties in a bunch guys. Life's tooooo short!
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:52 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Man, and I thought this hobby was going to be Fun..........


Don't get your Panties in a bunch guys. Life's tooooo short!
Come on Tom your old and wise enough not to really think that surely ?
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:14 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Come on Tom your old and wise enough not to really think that surely ?

You're right John! I guess I'll just have to enjoy the Misery this hobby provides.......
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:23 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Aftermarket parts that can be passed off as genuine original is dangerous, it is fraud waiting to happen.
If aftermarket parts were not available for these watches many would languish unused in drawers never to be worn again. There is a legitimate need for quality aftermarket parts for those of us who seek to restore these watches. Sometimes original is simply not available or affordable. It all comes down to the seller or restorer to divulge the use of aftermarket parts in presenting a watch for sale. Some collectors have a real issue with aftermarket parts used in their watches but others do not and it makes some watches more attainable for those who would otherwise not be able to afford an all original watch. This is no different than use of reproduction or aftermarket parts in restoration of classic cars, although many of these parts are made under trademark agreement with the original manufacture. The originals will always bring more money because they are original. Honestly is always the best rule. Too bad some sellers are not always honest.

Let me caveat my comments with the fact I am not in favor of firms overseas manufacturing fake watches and trying to pass them off as real. Fakes of a well known luxury brand are getting better and better and harder to distinguish from real even by the experts. That is a real problem.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:59 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Yeah, I don’t think anybody is supporting manufacturing replicas.

In the same way a real, say, Ram Air IV 1979 GTO is defined by having the original motor, transmission, VIN, etc.
I think most of us, if we are doing the restoring or buying it with full knowledge,
Are totally cool with a new crystal, bracelet, and such as long as we have the real deal dial, hands, movement, case, etc.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:30 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Ahh No. There is no problem selling a watch with AM parts as long as the seller accurately describes which parts are AM. The only time someone here is going to take issue is when a seller describes the watch as original when it is not. If the seller has no description, that's fine too as it is up to the buyer to figure out what's going on. I could keep listening various scenarios here but I can't be shagged.

At the end of the day its up to the buyer to know their shit. Every used item comes with an element of risk. Judging that risk correctly is what seperate a bad collector from a skilled one.

I think you see this as a black and white issue. But it's not, there are a thousand shades of grey relating to this topic. It's a forum of buyers, sellers, collectors, watchmakers, tinkers and the odd turd; each with their own ideas relating to AM parts.

Another 2 cents...
Oh I don't see it as black and white, I see it as what it is, that everyone will redraw the line to say what is okay and not okay to suit their needs.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:37 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Yeah, I don’t think anybody is supporting manufacturing replicas.

In the same way a real, say, Ram Air IV 1969 GTO is defined by having the original motor, transmission, VIN, etc.
I think most of us, if we are doing the restoring or buying it with full knowledge,
Are totally cool with a new crystal, bracelet, and such as long as we have the real deal dial, hands, movement, case, etc.
I had to fix this
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