Why is it okay to fake a bracelet but is it not done to fake a watch? - Page 2 - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 08-10-2019, 10:58 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bigbluekyle View Post
Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$
I'm #2 For the record, I believe that purveyors of fake parts are terrible people, until I need a replica part, then they are a godsend.
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Old 08-10-2019, 11:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluekyle View Post
Excellent thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the lively and spirited discussion.
I believe a fake aftermarket bracelet would have a very different meaning to different people:

1. Purist - An Abomination
2. Seiko Collector - Acceptable until I can find a Real One
3. Watch buyer - Can't see a difference so perfectly OK with it
4. Manufacturer - Meeting a need with a good quality product
5. Scammer - Easy $$$

i'm a "twee": a watch collector that would rather have the real thing when it comes to a seiko part but am perfectly ok with it. i will say that this sentiment may vary depending on the brand of watch.



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Old 08-10-2019, 11:56 PM   #28 (permalink)
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i will say that this sentiment may vary depending on the brand of watch.



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I completely agree... and might add that for me it also depends on the model of the watch. I am a Purist with some and Practical owner with others
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Excellent thread we have here...find it healthy as I see people not hesitating to express their personal viewpoints...while maintaining respect for viewpoints inconsistent with theirs...could serve as guiding light for many still undecided what track to follow!
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:11 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Replica= An exact copy including manufacturers markings, with the o.e manufacturers permission.
What??? Manufactures do not authorize replica's being made of their products. A replica is a stolen design from a manufacture without their consent.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:12 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Trying to pose this as a matter of preference misses the fact that buying fakes is not an action performed in a vacuum. Those purchases directly affect the market for real parts. Every fake bought lowers the value of every real part bought. That's not some abstract concern or preference, it's an economic transaction with a direct affect on the prices on other peoples watch parts. It's illegal, and it's illegal because it harms people who own the genuine parts. This is not a victim-less crime.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bradurani View Post
Every fake bought lowers the value of every real part bought.
Certainly I am not one to ever defend fake parts but I do not believe your above blanket statement is always true.

For example, there are tons of fake 6309 and 6105 Dials out there yet the price of Original Dials have been increasing, sometimes rapidly. The price for Mint Condition and NOS 6105 Dials have skyrocketed. The price of Fake 6309 Dials are still where they have always been - in the gutter.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:00 AM   #33 (permalink)
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If you look at the Vintage 6105-811X market Seiko has recently reissued the watch greatly adding to the supply of Authentic Made by Seiko 6105s. At the same time manufacturers in China are pumping out tons of 6105 Fakes and yet the market for original 6105-811Xs is Soaring. It does not look like the Abundance of Fakes and even Authorized Re-issues have done anything to even dent the rapid escalation of prices. If anything more awareness has increased values.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:38 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bigbluekyle View Post
If you look at the Vintage 6105-811X market Seiko has recently reissued the watch greatly adding to the supply of Authentic Made by Seiko 6105s. At the same time manufacturers in China are pumping out tons of 6105 Fakes and yet the market for original 6105-811Xs is Soaring. It does not look like the Abundance of Fakes and even Authorized Re-issues have done anything to even dent the rapid escalation of prices. If anything more awareness has increased values.
I don't think the soaring price of 6105s is evidence that fakes aren't harming their values. Who's to say they wouldn't be even higher without fakes? Same with @seikopsycho2's example of H-link bracelets. They're going for a healthy $100, but without fakes on the market, they may go for $150, since buyers would be less fearful of spending their money on fakes.

I'm in the market for a 6139 Pogue right now, and I haven't bought one because I've had a hard telling which watches have original dials, hands and bezels. A few times I've almost bid, but haven't, because I don't want to buy a watch with fake parts. Had I bid, my bid would have made the sale price higher whether I won it or not. Is that not proof that fakes negatively affect the value for sellers of real watches by scaring aspiring buyers away from bidding?

Concerning the re-issues, they certainly cause some people who were thinking about buying vintage to buy the re-issues instead. In that way they do depress prices of vintage ones. Whether the increased awareness of the models causes increased demand that counteracts that is hard to prove, however my hunch is that you're right and the re-issue has contributed to rising prices.
I don't think fakes have that effect though, or at least not enough to counteract the negative effect. It seems very unlikely someone would decide they want to buy a 6109 or a Pogue by stumbling on a listing for a fake and saying, "Cool! I want one!". More likely they learned about the model elsewhere.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:58 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't think the soaring price of 6105s is evidence that fakes aren't harming their values. Who's to say they wouldn't be even higher without fakes?
I think you have made excellent, very valid points and raised a good question that perhaps can never be answered. Where would the price of Vintage Originals be in the complete absence of fakes or reissues?

But the world does not exist in a vacuum
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Old 08-11-2019, 04:40 AM   #36 (permalink)
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In addition to being illegal, fakes devalue the originals. If you own an original Speedtimer bracelet, the existence of the fake makes it worth less money
A) because folks are less willing to pay a premium for the real one because a good cheap alternative exists
B) because buyers are more worried about the authenticity of your real bracelet and won't pay as big of a premium for fear it's fake

In other words, it's unfair to owners of the real thing. It's also unfair to the Seiko Corporation

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I own some watches and parts that some people might consider expensive. For sure they probably cost more now than when I purchased them. See, the thing with me is I really don't care what they are worth.

In fact, I would rather the value of every watch or part I owned went DOWN to the point that it would not be out of the question for everyone to buy one on a whim. Again, you can't really say that I am hurt by prices being driven down. I really don't worry about the price of things I own; it's the prices of things i DONT own that I think about and if prices drop.... Great.

A perfect example and counter point to your points A and B are reproduction rubber straps. I've got a few nos oem 6105 straps that probably sell now for 10x what I paid for them and I don't think the proliferation of all these repros by ANYone has hurt their valuation....nor do I care if they did. I could probably sell them for really whatever i wanted, but that's not the point. The points are 1) that the fakes haven't hurt valuations and 2) I don't think anyone would worry about whether they are real or not.

I can't believe I just wrote four paragraphs about a fake part... LOL.

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Old 08-11-2019, 06:31 AM   #37 (permalink)
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What??? Manufactures do not authorize replica's being made of their products. A replica is a stolen design from a manufacture without their consent.

Seeing as we are using scenario's here, lets say that the bracelet company ROWI see a niche market for vintage Seiko bracelets (originally made by Stellux). Rowi approach Seiko and ask permission to produce copies of these bracelets and use the Seiko logo in return for $x.
(unlikely i know)

These im my view would be replica bracelets.


A FAKE is a stolen design from a manufacture without their consent.


The term "replica" is often misused in the wis world by sellers of fake watches and watch related parts to make them appear legitimate. I.E

Its ok to buy a replica but not a fake.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:35 AM   #38 (permalink)
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If I can't have OEM then I would rather go without.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:38 AM   #39 (permalink)
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The folk here crying about fakes, reproductions etc... seem to be missing a very important point. An item like this is only a problem if Seiko sees it as a problem. They own the IP and it is up to them and their lawyers to send out a cease and desist letters. But I can guarantee they are not going to do this as items like these bands (and the watches they fit) are products they no longer support.

Seiko sees the value in the enthusiast market. They are literally re-releasing the watches we adore as a way of introducing Seiko to Swiss watch lovers the world over.

Having a vibrant and growing vintage market adds to their brand and is dollars in the bank as it helps sell their new watches. Unlike many Swiss brands that will service and restore your 50 year old time piece, Seiko is generally not going anywhere near your vintage chronograph.

Personally I like my watches original, and I never want to see a reproduction sold as an original, but I would not hesitate for a second to buy a 1:1 reproduction part to finish off a watch.

My 2 cents.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:46 AM   #40 (permalink)
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For the most part we're aware of new aftermarket parts, can tell the minuscule differences between scubapro dials, that are getting closer and closer... but on FB ( on vintage watch pages) I've given up on pointing out aftermarket shite. Oh, it's real for sure, because I bought it from Speedtimerkollxxx or Seikosix...the lines are blurring quickly and the originals are getting watered down.
Selling a 6139 on a east tech bracelet means quality a replacement part (elusive now in its own right) has been used. Clearly there's a fine market for bracelets like Jonathan's or Uncle Seiko. That's the way to go, no need to screw it up using a Seiko logo.

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Old 08-11-2019, 07:52 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Lots of varying opinions here and that's always a good thing.


One think is for sure, if Seiko thought there was a profitable market for vintage parts they would probably be the first in line to offer them. Obviously they are only interested in selling new products. It's unfortunate for us collectors but that's the decision they've made and therefore aftermarket products have surfaced.


If Seiko isn't worried about aftermarket products with their logo on them I'm sure not going to worry about it. I prefer to have original watches with original bracelets but when an original bracelet costs more then I've paid for an original watch with an original bracelet I'm just not going there and will choose an aftermarket bracelet. An aftermarket bracelet or strap is also a good choice for an original bracelet or strap that's worn beyond the "safe zone" for wearing a watch. An afternarket bracelet or strap is also the Best choice for a watch that has already been modded. after all, it's already "not original".


I'm just thankful that there are "Fabulous Fakes", "Aftermarket Alternatives", and "Over Priced Originals" for all of us to choose from. Just my 4 cents............
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:57 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Basically, it's all been ruined by people with too much money who don't know what they're buying.

And, those that simply see all this as an investment.

I'm with Larry, I would buy these things if every rich kid decided they would rather have a smart watch and the prices plummeted.

I'm with John in that if it is a fake, as in if has Seiko on the dial or part without them making it, then not for me.

But, I'm also with Tom in that if it has become so mind boggling expensive to find an original bracelet for a watch in his possession, and he has outlined the differences to alert people, with Seiko clearly not caring, and me not caring as much about people who throw money at fakes whilst this info is available because some Hodinkee article told them to buy a watch and they have zero actual passion or interest, then live and let live.
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:02 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I tend to try and go this way, can't always do it with the more rare bracelets but..........
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:58 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I prefer to give my money to a artisan instead. Take for instance my Kakume. While there are plenty of AM bracelets out there that would look the part I’d rather put it on a custom leather strap where I can choose the leather, stitch pattern/style and thread color. The end result is more unique (to me) and makes the watch wearable while I patiently search for an original XGA 261 bracelet.

Ahhhh distressed Horween leather on stainless made by my friend Eric of EA Leathergoods....

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Old 08-11-2019, 10:12 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I prefer to give my money to a artisan instead. Take for instance my Kakume. While there are plenty of AM bracelets out there that would look the part I’d rather put it on a custom leather strap where I can choose the leather, stitch pattern/style and thread color. The end result is more unique (to me) and makes the watch wearable while I patiently search for an original XGA 261 bracelet.

Ahhhh distressed Horween leather on stainless made by my friend Eric of EA Leathergoods....

A great way to go Todd, a custom look with a quality hand made leather (nice watch).
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:22 AM   #46 (permalink)
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It is interesting that a lot of folks here trying to rationalize and defend the use fake parts. I guess it is the reality for something that is 50 years old, original parts in good conditions are increasingly difficult to find. The consequence is that you just cannot believe anyone telling you the watch is original anymore. Getting a watch with fake parts unwittingly will become the norm, not for the knowledgeable members here of course, but for everyone else. But that is okay, we don't care about those people, especially those who reads Hodinkee.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:35 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Yup. If they are told what to buy. Have no care or passion to actually be interested, why do you care if they buy a fake?

I mean in the scheme of things there are far worse things going on in the world to be honest. Certain cultures pride themselves on replicating what others have done.

I was being facetious, by the way. But in all seriousness do you have all this compassion for people who chuck money at stuff without actually caring about what they are buying?

Put it this way, what is easier, stopping the fake watch world, or educating people to research and gain knowledge of what they are buying so they dont make those mistakes and thus the industry is either so refined it dupes us all, or fakes other crap where the same applies...

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Old 08-11-2019, 11:44 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Yup. If they are told what to buy. Have no care or passion to actually be interested, why do you care if they buy a fake?

I mean in the scheme of things there are far worse things going on in the world to be honest. Certain cultures pride themselves on replicating what others have done.

I was being facetious, by the way. But in all seriousness do you have all this compassion for people who chuck money at stuff without actually caring about what they are buying?

Put it this way, what is easier, stopping the fake watch world, or educating people to research and gain knowledge of what they are buying so they dont make those mistakes and thus the industry is either so refined it dupes us all, or fakes other crap where the same applies...
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:45 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Plus, what is apparent here is that many opposed to fakes or am stuff are ok with these bracelets. And...I get it...it isn't for me but then most Seiko isn't these days.

I have no dog in this fight. People do what they want and no amount of moral grandstanding will change a thing. My only principle is that I care what I buy and as a result make less mistakes and put less money in the hands of fakers. But that is just me.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:01 PM   #50 (permalink)
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If something is wrong, it is wrong. We can't just normalize lies and deception, even if it is in the world of something as frivolous as the watch hobby. It is probably too late, based on the reactions in this thread. I should just tell my kid it is okay to cheat on tests or whatever, everyone else is doing it anyway.
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