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Old 03-07-2012, 08:26 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHASCO

Jonathan, If they did buy from you, You would have all the pertinent information to expose them Boy, I wish they would buy
Been thinking this myself. And would love to help blow the whistle.

I have seen but a few -7000s come up for sale with my cursors, and they were from private individuals.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:52 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by swedefreak
I wish I could offer a definitive answer. There are so many variables that effect the final cost of such an endeavor.

First, one must consider how many of an item will be produced. The more that are made, the less the unit cost. Most manufactures require a minimum of a thousand copies. My experience with my bracelets has been one of begging on bended knee to make "only" five hundred units. Aside from the nearly 12 months it takes from concept to finished product, my cost for each was well into five figures.

Perhaps manufacturing a complete watch case to accept genuine parts (movement, crystal, bezel, rotating ring, crown and pushers) would have a more reasonable minimum of one or two hundred units. The cost might be in the $60 to $70 per each range, perhaps a little less.

In any case, the cost of putting all the bits together leaves plenty of room for profit even considering buying genuine movements and assembly labor.

In the end, we all must maintain our most attentive vigilance to discover and report the latest attempts to cheat the buying public.

And, by the way, reporting these crooks to eBay very, very rarely yields favorable result. It is my firm belief eBay doesn't give a rodent's rosy red rectum as in the past I reported many known crooked vendors dozens of times, yet they have not been banned and still make tons of money on the 'Bay and FOR the 'Bay

I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and I can tell you that with 3D modeling and automatic CNC with 3 axis milling heads, a prototype house can turn the cases out by the hundreds with minimal engineering charges. Stainless steel billets goes in and pristine samples comes out the other end. The cost would be around $1500 set up charge and minimum of 100 units. A large manufacturer usually have a large minimum so I bet these were turned out by a small prototype shop. The dial could also be turned out by the tons with the correct artwork and minimal set up charge. These guys can turn out $40 kits and all you have to do is drop in a 6138 movement. Crystals, hands, pushers and crowns and bracelet can be sourced cheaply, all that's needed is some hand finishing but if these are made in Asia, labor is very cheap. Total, not counting set up charges, less than a $200 each copy for quantity of 100. $100 for quantity of 500. Prices go down from there.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:21 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Thanks for the estimation guys.

So one thing for sure, if this was a well-funded operation, the only limiting factor would be the availability of a working 6138 movement.

We haven't seen anymore than 20 pieces I think, so there must be loads more unsold out there (or sold to private collectors). I will try to contact the Malaysian seller on ebay (They do not normally respond to fellow countrymen) and see how many more he/she has.

I have got the Commercial Crime Unit of the Police number ready, as well as a dozen or so cyberfraud and Intellectual Property law officers at my disposal.

If you are reading this you sick crook, be sure that your time is up.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:26 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

I would think that Seiko would be interested to know of this. While a few 6138-7000s might not be that big a deal to them, if all of a sudden there were bullheads, 6105s, 6217s...well you get the picture. While money wouldn't be the issue here, i'd imagine they would want to protect their reputation and get ahead of this.

I did some checking into the corporate structure and the Director of Legal Affairs for Seiko Holdings is Akio Naito. He serves on the board and works out of Tokyo HQ.

Is there someone fluent in Japanese that wants to try and reach out to them? Best place would be calling the main office at tel:+81-3-67393111. No doubt asking for Mr. Naito will get you a secretary/assistant or junior attorney, but all a reasonable first step.

Any takers...or is this a dumb idea?
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:31 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedefreak
As a collector, I've been following this thread with great interest.

As a parts manufacturer, I'm wondering why none of these crooks haven't purchased my repro Cursor Ring to add to their "authentic", "original" messes.

I was also wondering about this, and indeed why they haven't bought one from you Jonathan and copied it, could it be that the cursor rings don't fit in the remanufactured case? Has anyone managed to fit a cursor to one of these fakes...if not it could be of great help to anyone considering buying...
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:37 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by axb

I was also wondering about this, and indeed why they haven't bought one from you Jonathan and copied it, could it be that the cursor rings don't fit in the remanufactured case? Has anyone managed to fit a cursor to one of these fakes...if not it could be of great help to anyone considering buying...

I have fitted both Jonathan's repro and an OEM one on mine, they fit fine. I can't tell you if they have the same feel and function once fitted as on the original as sadly I have never handled one
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:43 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by Technoman
As to one point that I have seen raised about these, I am pretty sure they are not made from remachined 6138-001X cases, comparing this to mine there are some differences in the case profile that make this highly unlikely, including that the caseback appears to be a different size as well.

AJ, Whilst that's a good thing as it means that the 6138-001x is not being sacrificed for these fakes, it does however raise a disturbing possibility, especially as Sophon, etc seen to have an unlimited supply of theses for sale as well...have they run off a load of cases to act as fakes for both, as far as a quick search shows the 'UFO's they're selling hacve different serial numbers, but how do the cases compare with an original?


I hope that this is not the case, but with what we've learnt about the slide-rules I think it's worth checking out further...
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:19 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Looks like another one has turned up, in the UK this time, hard to see the serial number but has the 00 on the subdial ???

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seiko-Auto...item4cff273f27
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:30 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Hi Fowey

I applaud your enthusiasm and vigilance but that's the one I alluded to on this thread yesterday, which was subsequently discussed!

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Old 03-08-2012, 07:35 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by jair1970
Hi Fowey

I applaud your enthusiasm and vigilance but that's the one I alluded to on this thread yesterday, which was subsequently discussed!
Oh OK, glad to hear that, I was doing my usual search for 6138's and it popped up, must have missed your post this thread is so long. This guy was selling some other dodgy stuff a few weeks ago, he has two Ebay accounts and often uses the same pictures for apparently different watches on both accounts, quite blantant some of them!!
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:13 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Lets be clear guys, we are talking about an entirely fake watch, everything except the movement, and not just those ones with fake dials (though still a problem).


All of the fake watches so far have the serial number 4D8346, though of course this might change in the future
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by thanapa
Jon,

Could you briefly describe how easy/difficult it is to produce the cases and parts for this model? What kind of capital outlay would it involve?

I would just like to understand the scale of manufacture so we might be able to estimate how many of these are to be produced so that it is profitable for the forger at a selling price of about half the eBay asking price.
As Jon is in the US, he may be have a little less accurate info on this, so I'll chime in. If this stuff is being made in China, then it's more about materials and the quality of the product as well as quantity than anything else. If it's made of lowgrade steel or worse, with low quality machining (which it looks like it has from the pix inside the case, spacer, etc..and with a paper thin aluminum insert, etc) and made in large quantity, then the cost may be very low. I'll put this in perspective. In Mainland China a fake Rolex Sub, with solid links bracelet and automatic movement, can be had for all of around $12 USD...and that's buying one, after it passes from manufacturer, to assembler, to store, to you. The Chinese can make excellent quality goods at a decent price these days, or they can make crap for next to nothing. It all depends on what the customer wants. Going after these guys? Hahahaha...I'll put it this way. They sell fake Rolex etc. in the mall at the same train station attached to the gov't of China customs/border office. I wouldn't bother mentoning it to Seiko either...They've known about all the fake Seiko branded dials coming out of the Philippines for a long time, and don't appear to care.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:30 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Wow, what a disturbing post! I just read this for the first time, and I'm appalled. I applaud Thanapa for having the courage to divulge the information he has. And even more so considering this is obviously an international ring of crooks doing something that appears to be wildly lucrative. If Jake B's cost/profit numbers are correct, and I don't doubt they are, I'm sure there are going to be some disgruntled folks out there. It's one thing to knock of rolex subs that you only get a few dollars for, and where the the buyer for the most part knows what he's getting. It's another to reproduce highly collectible watches in an effort to dupe people out of significant amounts money.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:27 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Demand and Greed creates fakes. For the money even the movement can be created in China. I have worked with the watch Industry in China and almost anything is possible there!
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:49 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

I did not see this discussion, so I was the one buyng the [color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]251006284688...

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Mailed Rahim, and het told me that there is 00 instead of 60 on the subdial, and that he bought it for 500 us$ inSingapore last year.
[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]We agreed to cancel the transaction.

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I have one more, it it out for a new plexi... when it returns I am afraid to see the serial... bought it from here though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoweyUK
I had to ask the seller of item 251006284688 about originality to see what he would say, maybe he is unaware that it is not what it seems or very confident nobody will notice!

[size=1em]Dear arisahak2008,

Hi I am interested in your watch, can you confirm that the watch has no aftermarket parts fitted and that it is completely original.

- fowey007


Dear fowey007,

Yes watch it 100% original or money back The SS Seiko bracelet is new Thank you for your kind interest Best regards rahim
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:39 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore



Just tuning in, and this development is quite awful. I did notice a dramatic increase in the number of 6138-7000s for sale on Ebay over the last couple years, but just attributed it to the increased interest in vintage Seikos generally. Figured they were just "coming out of the woodwork". Up until a year or two ago, seeing a 7000 on the Bay was pretty rare, and the ones seen typically needed some work. I guess this explains the increase.

I knew the dials on these watches were fake just because the font wasn't quite right, and the Seiko logo on the dial is a little..."off", as is typical for fakers. I had no idea that the ENTIRE WATCH save for the movement had been faked.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make these, and the scary thing is they made them 98% RIGHT.

Had to go check mine just to make sure it was okay...
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Is there someone who knows where they are coming from?

I would hate to sell one of my cursor rings to them.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:28 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

There is one on Ebay UK just now, I think I will put in a max bid of £100, its true worth!


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Old 03-09-2012, 08:58 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

I still need a volunteer to either take my fake 7000 or send me their original for a photo essay on the differences. Does anyone else think this is a worthwhile exercise or is their really little point?



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Old 03-09-2012, 10:35 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Default Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

To what Jake B had to say about China not caring:
I read a story last year about Apple stores popping up over China that were an exact duplicate of the real thing. Store looked real, had the same products. They even interviewed the employees and they believed they were employed by Apple!
The end result, Apple closed some of them down but not all, did not get much help from the Chinese govt.

I'd love to know how much these crooks made on $600 iPads.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:02 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

This thread is epic, and so very interesting to any Seiko watch lover/collector (Isn't the same?)


Should be saved someplace accesible to everyone. This forum, SCWF, really marks the difference.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:37 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

I'm curious... There are literally thousands of 6309 baketcases that are full of aftermarket parts coming out of the Phillipines, and I've always wondered where the heck do they find all of them? Did they just get an inordinately large number of them from Seiko over the years, or perhaps from the Malaysian factories? Is it a precursor to this scheme with the 6138s that these crooks are modeling their scam off of? I guess that's more of a rhetorical question, and nobody will ever know for sure.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:44 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Sometimes it feels like Seiko was, for the phillipine time keeping market, what Honda CUB was for asian mobility...
There is still an unexhausted ressource of old well used Seikos to be exploited there.
It is actually our falt, that we are ready to pay horid prices for what was originally mass consumption products.
We are actually asking to be fooled and the suppliers are only fulfilling our own wish.

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Old 03-10-2012, 06:35 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Well our hairless ebayer, hell with it: BALD_PETEY has another 6138-7000 for sale now.

2 on the bay, one's already up to £62.

THESE ARE FAKE WATCHES REPRESENTED AS GENUINE
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:35 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Contacted bald petey and mentioned that he has two fakes ,with same serial #, he replied that he was selling them for a friend and did not notice the #...
He removed one...
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