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Old 03-03-2012, 10:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

OMFG, how much of a f'in problem do I now have with these fakes. Just went to do some comparisons with the one I own, and have owned now for almost 2 years and voila.... 00 Dial and does anybody want to guess what my serial number is................. yep, thats right... 4D8634.











I feel like a damn stooopid noob.............................................. ............................................. :'(





















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Old 03-03-2012, 10:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technoman

I am not entirely certain either, but I would postulate that someone took the unique parts not already available on the black market and had those last bits re-manufactured. It is interesting, but for this watch you can already buy fake dials and also hands, bezel inserts, pushers, stems, crowns, crystals etc etc, so all you really ever needed was a case, a bezel and a supply of 6138 movements and you can pretty much cobble that all together to make it work. At $400 + a pop, it probably turns a decent profit.

I was honestly wondering why so many of them seemed to be appearing. Never ever occurred to me that they might be being remanufactured, faked, wholesale. These bring a large profit margin I'm sure. I was told once by a guy I briefly did business with who was based in India that he could get movements serviced for a few dollars. China has the manufacturing capability to make almost anything (speaking of that, I am sincerely wondering why no one has had a new batch of indicator ring gears for 6139s made up... perhaps I will.)



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Old 03-03-2012, 10:25 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technoman
OMFG, how much of a f'in problem do I now have with these fakes. Just went to do some comparisons with the one I own, and have owned now for almost 2 years and voila.... 00 Dial and does anybody want to guess what my serial number is................. yep, thats right... 4D8634.







I feel like a damn stooopid noob.............................................. ............................................. :'(

Oh holy hell, I'm so sorry AJ that's awful. Can the correct / real parts be sourced to make it better?



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Old 03-03-2012, 10:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Sick to my stomach I tell ya...


Anyway, as I deal with my loss, it does appear these have been around a long time. I remember when I purchased this one I did some research and found it was listed on a blog and was told if I recall correctly that it was the same watch. I did not think to go searching on the serial, oh well I guess we always learn something..


This was the blog I found, and this post was made in July of 2010, I think I purchased a couple of months after that, I am looking for the records now.


Point is, check your 6138-7000, and see if you got had as well. I will tell you that the quality of this fake is simply stunning, in every aspect. I have just spent the last 15 minutes looking at mine and the absolute, only tell tale sign is the 00 on the dial and the tone of the two lume dots at the 12:00 mark is also a little green (I never noticed this before).


Even the hands on the one I have are perfect originals, they glow correctly under UV light etc.


Here is the blog post I saw back in 2010....


http://www.maximuswatches.com/2010/0...tor-seiko.html


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Old 03-03-2012, 10:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by daveswordfish
Well said AJ and Spencer. Wow...talk about pots calling kettles black.

Utterly shameless.



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Old 03-03-2012, 10:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by Spencer

Oh holy hell, I'm so sorry AJ that's awful. Can the correct / real parts be sourced to make it better?

Maybe, but whats real any more?
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:35 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

and people, we now see that cheating fakers who make rip-off watches actually have victims. In this case, our very own AJ. Think on that when supporting someone on any level (including reacting with silence, which can be a form of support) who sells any kind of faked watches, with fake dials, fake parts, undisclosed case refinishing. Think of all the victims out there, and that a perpetrator of these kinds of crimes is HERE, at SCWF.



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Old 03-03-2012, 11:30 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

I should be enjoying my weekend with my new SBDX001, but I just feel like throwing this damn slide rule watch into a wall. I think my pride is hurt the most in all honesty, one of the things I truly think I understand is condition and originality and I freely give others advice on these details when asked (or when contacting sellers on the trade forum as a part of my moderating there), and then something like this happens :'(


I actually purchased this watch from another collector, and have posted it hundreds of times on this forum and on others, with never as much as a question raised about its authenticity so I know it must look pretty close. And I don't say this as I am angry at knowing, I really would rather know and am thankful in all honesty that I still own it and it didn't become someone else's loss, but I am surprised at how upset this has actually made me and how attached to this watch I was...



Sorry to vent....


P.S. I just checked my MM300, it appears it is original.............





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Old 03-03-2012, 11:39 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by Technoman
I should be enjoying my weekend with my new SBDX001, but I just feel like throwing this damn slide rule watch into a wall. I think my pride is hurt the most in all honesty, one of the things I truly think I understand is condition and originality and I freely give others advice on these details when asked (or when contacting sellers on the trade forum as a part of my moderating there), and then something like this happens :'(


I actually purchased this watch from another collector, and have posted it hundreds of times on this forum and on others, with never as much as a question raised about its authenticity so I know it must look pretty close. And I don't say this as I am angry at knowing, I really would rather know and am thankful in all honesty that I still own it and it didn't become someone else's loss, but I am surprised at how upset this has actually made me and how attached to this watch I was...



Sorry to vent....


P.S. I just checked my MM300, it appears it is original.............

I'm sure it's original.


Buddy if we were closer I'd give you a manly, non-embarassing hug of support. What a blow. There are words of encouragement for you but I won't bore you with them now.



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Old 03-03-2012, 11:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

AJ my buddy, can't tell you how sick it makes me feel knowing you were victimized by these unscrupulous sellers.

I think the blog owner is from Indonesia (not that it makes any difference), but just try and contact him and see what possible remedy can be found. There are a few sellers from Malaysia as well, and also since you-know-who is from Thailand, this looks like a well distributed SEA marketing channel in action.

Not being brave like AJ in owning up can only compound the problem. This is a forgery scam costing a very big amount in any currency you would wish to consider.

I am proposing a global concentrated effort to trace the perpetrators of these scam and unearth its source.

Do not take this lightly my fellow SCWF members, our forum is being read by the same people who are scheming to trick us every step of the way.

Please post the info as you guys see fit on other watch forums that you are a member of, just to make sure we keep damage to a minimum.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:13 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

AJ...so sorry to hear of this. If I had a spare one, it would already be boxed and addressed to you.


Lots of stuff to say about the peddlers of this crap and it's impact on the hobby, but for now, know that you have the respect, support, and kinship of the entire community. Enjoy the MM and don't let it get ya too blue.

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Old 03-04-2012, 12:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

This is (maybe) the earliest info I got about these forgeries:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/nee...se-280185.html

Anyone with an account there knows the user and confirm the S/N?
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:58 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

As far as I heard from other source,cases for such popular Seiko are begin newly made too( seiko calculator included!)..would need an original one to do a side by side comparison.
The fake case would have sharper edges around the lugs area and inside of case(with movement removed) would appear crudely finished( less pretty than original).

Its usually the case ,even for popular swiss divers.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:07 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Here are some quick and dirties of what I have found.


The case is pretty much a 1:1 replica however that is what it is, a replica. However as the forgers lack the finesse or quality control that Seiko have there are a couple of tell tale signs under the covers (oh how I wish this watch had not run perfectly and I had had it open before....)


The stem tube is way too long and does not have the cutout that the original Seiko ones do on the inside. In fact, the fake cases stem tube is so long it would have had to have been put in place after the movement was put in because I would have to remove it to get the movement out!!


Here is the fake case stem tube:


Sorry the pics are not the best....


[img]


Here is what it looks like on my 6138-0011, and on two of my other 6138's...


[img]


Note that it sits pretty much flush with the inside of the case to allow for dial/movement clearance.


Here are the threads for the caseback on the fake case:


[img]


Notice how far down into the case they go, and that the hole for the stem tube and pusher tubes are up into the thread area..


Here is my 6138-0011 threads (same essentially as a couple of my other 6138's as well)


[img]


And it appears that they also make their own movement holders, here are a couple of side by sides with an original. Though it should go without saying, the fake one is on the left...










So while I would not call this definitive, I believe that the entire case assembly is fake and was manufactured for the purpose of this ruse.


The caseback also appears to have been 1:1 copied from an original that was probably already polished as it does not have the crisp edges. It is a little smooth towards the case edge where there is normally a distinct bevelled plane and also on the area around the horshoe where it moves from the flat top surface to the side. In all honesty, it looks like any normal caseback that has been polished to be honest. The quality of the printing/stamping is excellent and virtually indistinguishable from Seiko originals, but there are some very small possible differences with the Suwa symbol and the font, but really I would need an original 7000 to definitively verify. Either way, the whole case is utterly convincing on the outside but I would need another 7000 to see if any of the measurements are off at all.


As for the bezel, I haven't taken that apart but I would suspect that it is also an entirely fake manufactured piece as well with an aftermarket insert.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:18 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore


As requested here's a pic of my original for comparison...



I'd seen these ebay ones come up often, but had always assumed that the dials were AM and the rest refurbished, but the serial number thing is always a give away, and seeing as the same seller is manufacturing NOS bracelets, etc. its not a great leap to go one step further and do the whole watch...

I'm on my mobile at the moment, will post some more when I get home...
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:33 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Just an update. Sophon have not shipped the watch yet and refunded my money in full. Lesson well learned. The search continues...


Just imagine without these postings I would have been ...screwed.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:41 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Thanks Alex. AJ, keep the pics coming in. Great job on the CSI work with the stem tube and the caseback thread.

edit: Solaris, how much was it?
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:42 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by Solaris94
Just an update. Sophon have not shipped the watch yet and refunded my money in full. Lesson well learned. The search continues...


Just imagine without these postings I would have been ...screwed.
GREAT news!

The only sad part is that someone else will end up with it, and learn the hard way.



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Old 03-04-2012, 01:43 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Sorry double post.... Looking at it closely now, I think the case is a modified 6138-0011 case. The shape of the opening around the crown is round instead of "squarish".


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Old 03-04-2012, 01:46 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by thanapa
Thanks Alex. AJ, keep the pics coming in. Great job on the CSI work with the stem tube and the caseback thread.

edit: Solaris, how much was it?

My first offer was $525 for it but got it for $550 shipped.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:51 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

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Originally Posted by axb
I'm on my mobile at the moment, will post some more when I get home...

Ok, here's a few more, hope they're of use...I'm appalled that so many people have been taken for a ride...

[img]


[img]

[img]


[img]


[img]





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Old 03-04-2012, 01:57 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaris94
Sorry double post.... Looking at it closely now, I think the case is a modified 6138-0011 case. The shape of the opening around the crown is round instead of "squarish".

You could well be right, the crown recess on the original has squared sides as I this shot:[img]
The profile of the bezel also seems wrong...
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:58 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer
and people, we now see that cheating fakers who make rip-off watches actually have victims. In this case, our very own AJ. Think on that when supporting someone on any level (including reacting with silence, which can be a form of support) who sells any kind of faked watches, with fake dials, fake parts, undisclosed case refinishing. Think of all the victims out there, and that a perpetrator of these kinds of crimes is HERE, at SCWF.

Spencer, It is quite obvious what you are trying to do here and it really is not necessary we have gone over all this before.
Lets instead focus on this situation, if you have anything to say to me then feel free to PM me.






Why not suggest instead....that we maybe try and help AJ, seeing as he has helped so many others, and we try and
do a project watch for him, it is obvious he is gutted about this slide rule and with all the contacts people have here we should
be able to sort something out in no time at all.
Not only that but it might be as special to him as the watch he thought he had.
Plus......it would be fun to do it.




I for example have contacts and I am sure we can get parts and fire them over as a team effort we can come up with something special for him.






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Old 03-04-2012, 02:21 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Alex, is that bracelet original to the watch? I can't seem to find the picture in the archived Seiko catalogs..
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:29 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heads Up.. Fake 6138-7000 Galore

Steve, maybe you could open thread and please help AJ as much as you can.

I am trying to keep this thread as factual as possible, so that any would be/previous victim can easily check what they have.

Great job so far, all of you!
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