Seiko 4R36 vs Seiko 6R15 - Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Seiko 4R36 vs Seiko 6R15

Hi,
reading the official technical guide of the Seiko 4R36 caliber and the official technical guide of the Seiko 6R15C caliber,
I noticed that on paper, the 6R15 is a far better movement than the 4R36.

They beat at 21600bph, the lift angle is 53 on both calibers, they both hack and handwind, same automatic winding mechanism but

The acceptable daily rate for the 4R36 is:
-35/+45 seconds a day,
+/- 30 seconds day isochronism fault,
+/- 30 maximum positional variation,
40 hours power reserve (SPRON110 mainspring).

The acceptable daily rate for the 6R15 is:
-15/+25 seconds a day,
+/- 10 seconds day isochronism fault,
+/- 15 maximum positional variation,
50 hours power reserve (SPRON510 mainspring).

As you can see from this specs, the 6R15 has far better specs.

I have a Monster with a 4R36 and a SARB033 with a 6R15C and I can confirm that the SARB is less
prone to positional variation and less prone to isochronism fault.

So why most people say that 4R36 is quite identical to 6R15?
I feel the 6R15 way better than 4R36. Am I wrong?
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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You speak from firsthand experience with both movements. A lot of other people just read it on the internet.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulboy View Post
You speak from firsthand experience with both movements. A lot of other people just read it on the internet.
I can speak from firsthand experience, I have a Monster with 4R36 and a SARB033 with a 6R15 but I would like to have a confirmation from you.
I just want to be sure that mine is not "just a case".
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I like the 6R15, I don't have a watch with a 4R36 movement. I tend to compare my 6R15 with my ETA2824. In my limited experience I regard them as similar in terms of general timekeeping.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Maybe, since the 4R36 hacks, other people think that its almost the same with the 6R15.

But, if you closely and strictly compare it...of course the 6R15 is far superior compared to the 4R36.

My other concern is durability. Lately, I have experienced a watch with a 4r36 movement giving up in just 3 years (normal wear).

Is the 6R15 movement more durable compared to a 4R36?
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The main differences in materials and construction between the two calibers are the balance spring and the mainspring. Both are made from a special formulation of Seiko's SPRON material.
The balance spring in the 6r15 is better suited to handle temperature and positional variations. The mainspring in the 6r15 has approx 20% longer reserve and the spring unwinds more uniformly than the one in the 4r36.
These are the things that account for the tighter specs on the 6r15. Most other parts are common to both calibers so there shouldn't be any disparity in quality, robustness or longevity.

The 6r15 is generally installed in heigh tier watches than the entry level 4r36 so people expect it to be superior.
If timekeeping is the measure to be compared then the 6r15 has an advantage. If manufacturing and finish are compared then they pretty much break even; after all they are both based on the old 7s26 and the short lived 4r15.
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spilled Fluids View Post
The main differences in materials and construction between the two calibers are the balance spring and the mainspring. Both are made from a special formulation of Seiko's SPRON material.
The balance spring in the 6r15 is better suited to handle temperature and positional variations. The mainspring in the 6r15 has approx 20% longer reserve and the spring unwinds more uniformly than the one in the 4r36.
These are the things that account for the tighter specs on the 6r15. Most other parts are common to both calibers so there shouldn't be any disparity in quality, robustness or longevity.

The 6r15 is generally installed in heigh tier watches than the entry level 4r36 so people expect it to be superior.
If timekeeping is the measure to be compared then the 6r15 has an advantage. If manufacturing and finish are compared then they pretty much break even; after all they are both based on the old 7s26 and the short lived 4r15.
Are you sure that the balance spring is different?
Most people talks about main spring only.
Is there some official statement on this?
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've had both and never had one of either off by more than a few seconds a day. Actually I've never had a 7S26 of by more than 10 seconds a day other than one and I've had probably ten of those too.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I would like to know if the balance spring is different from the one used in 4R36.
This is not very clear.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
I would like to know if the balance spring is different from the one used in 4R36.
This is not very clear.
Yes, the balance spring is different. The 6r15 is made from a different material than the one in the 4r36.
This is what mainly accounts for the tighter tolerance on the 6r15.
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Old 04-17-2015, 08:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spilled Fluids View Post
Yes, the balance spring is different. The 6r15 is made from a different material than the one in the 4r36.
This is what mainly accounts for the tighter tolerance on the 6r15.
nice to know it
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Old 04-19-2015, 01:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
Hi,
reading the official technical guide of the Seiko 4R36 caliber and the official technical guide of the Seiko 6R15C caliber,
I noticed that on paper, the 6R15 is a far better movement than the 4R36.

They beat at 21600bph, the lift angle is 53 on both calibers, they both hack and handwind, same automatic winding mechanism but

The acceptable daily rate for the 4R36 is:
-35/+45 seconds a day,
+/- 30 seconds day isochronism fault,
+/- 30 maximum positional variation,
40 hours power reserve (SPRON110 mainspring).

The acceptable daily rate for the 6R15 is:
-15/+25 seconds a day,
+/- 10 seconds day isochronism fault,
+/- 15 maximum positional variation,
50 hours power reserve (SPRON510 mainspring).

As you can see from this specs, the 6R15 has far better specs.

I have a Monster with a 4R36 and a SARB033 with a 6R15C and I can confirm that the SARB is less
prone to positional variation and less prone to isochronism fault.

So why most people say that 4R36 is quite identical to 6R15?
I feel the 6R15 way better than 4R36. Am I wrong?
I add that 4R36 is has weird behaviour when on timegrapher,
if I put it in an a position and than I wait to see the graph on timegrapher I can see that the rate varies of about 10seconds.

Dial up for example, the rate varies between 0 to +12...
this is a complete mess...

With 6R15 the difference in rate using the same position is up to 2 seconds.

Why 4R36 is so "weird"?
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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My first hand experience (x3) with the 4R36 is that it's a reliable and accurate movement, and for the price should be taking over the 7S26 job in watches in that price bracket.
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilkin View Post
My first hand experience (x3) with the 4R36 is that it's a reliable and accurate movement, and for the price should be taking over the 7S26 job in watches in that price bracket.
I'm not saying the opposite, I'm only saying that 6R15 is a much better movement.
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Old 04-19-2015, 03:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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My former black sumo,blue sumo and premier had 6r15 and all where within 2/3 sec per day.That is my experience with this movement,far better than seiko advertises it.
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Old 04-19-2015, 07:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
I add that 4R36 is has weird behaviour when on timegrapher,
if I put it in an a position and than I wait to see the graph on timegrapher I can see that the rate varies of about 10seconds.

Dial up for example, the rate varies between 0 to +12...
this is a complete mess...

With 6R15 the difference in rate using the same position is up to 2 seconds.

Why 4R36 is so "weird"?
It is entirely possible that the regulator pin opening has not been adjusted. If the gap is too large, this is the kind of thing you might see on the Timegrapher.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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In reality, you are stuck with whatever movement Seiko decide to put into a watch that the buyer likes.

I'm stuck with the 7S26 in my 007J but in reality I'd love a more accurate movement with hacking and manual winding.

Pity Seiko can't do bespoke watches. Choose your watch style/face/hands/colour and then add your preferred movement. Everyone would be happy then!
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilkin View Post
Pity Seiko can't do bespoke watches. Choose your watch style/face/hands/colour and then add your preferred movement. Everyone would be happy then!
That's exactly how pocket watches were sold when America was the dominant watch manufacturer.
You ordered your case and the movement separately. The thing is, watches were for wealthy people in those times. It took a while for watches to be made for the masses.
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I recently had Duarte install a 4R36 into my FFF mod. After I adjusted it with Kello it's plus a couple seconds a day. Pretty close to my Sumo and Alpinist.

Mark
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