Author Topic: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.  (Read 3196 times)

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Offline TheTigerUK

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Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« on: August 04, 2010, 03:28:48 PM »
September 1st.

Bank holiday here so i have started the project a couple of days early while i had a little spare time :)

  •    
    “Project”  6309 !!
    Case  back removal, tools and methods.
  • Gather       your tools together, sticky ball (blue is best LoL), Jaxa type back       opener(mine is a cheepy and one of these days i will get a better one), case holder, cloth, bench vice and of course the project watch       bought specially for the project from Ebay.
     
 
 
  • Try       sticky ball first imo the safest method, by that I mean the method least       likely to damage the case back. Method make sure the back is clean and the       ball, place the ball on the back and then press down and turn anti       clockwise at the same time, some times you will have to repeat this       process a few times to get a good grip, hopefully now the back is turning J
     
 
 
  • So       the case back has been put on by a power press or just never been opened       in years (which can be a good thing or bad !!) but it will not budge with       the ball so now we need the “heavy” equipment :( . First off I put the       case holder in my small bench vice, open the case holder to the size of       your watch and I then cover it with a micro cloth so that hopefully there       can be no damage to the case, crystal or bezel. Now adjust the Jaxa type       tool so that the tips are a good fit in the case back cut-outs, place the       tool tips in the cut-outs and press down firmly on the top of the tool       while gently putting pressure       on the handle to turn it anti clockwise, don’t try to jerk it or do it to       quickly just rather slowly put       pressure on while at all times pressing down on the tool to keep the tips       in the case back cut-outs and hopefully it has now started to move.
     
 
 
  • In       all honesty this particular back started to come undone with the ball but       I still continued with the other method because of the project!! What I       will often do if the case back is being really stubborn and the Jaxa has       to come out is to put electricians tape or any other tape I have over the       back so that it I was to slip the tape would protect the case from damage       in the form of a scratch etc (I hate to see case backs that have been       scratched).
     
 
 
  • The       case back is now off and our first look at the movement and case threads       on the back and case, great this one has no corrosion to either, the       movement looks to be very clean and running well (so it seems), at this       point I also remove the old gasket that has normally gone flat with age       and they often dry out and go brittle, I always keep a sewing pin in a pin       vice as I find this tool comes in very handy for lots of little jobs like       removing the gaskets etc, this gasket is not to bad thought still pliable       and a bit of shape to it so this has helped the movement keep clean.
     
 
 
  • Observation       time, movement clean and all the screws look good so not been butchered,       corrosion around the edge of the ratchet wheel? , running, movement holder       good complete with spring, case threads and gasket seat good and the same       on the back cover so all in all first impressions are very favourable J       J
   







 
 
 
Disclaimer.
At no time do I say my methods are the correct way, best  way, proper way or the only way just that these methods work for me  ;)   you copy or use these methods at your own risk J
 
Why have this project? Two reasons,
 
  • To       perhaps help some of you guys to do a little more to your watches and have       the satisfaction of doing it yourself.
  • Ulterior       motive of mine to pick up tips from others ;)
   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 04:07:08 PM by TheTigerUK »
I have been in Deepshit many times; the older I get, the easier it is  to get there. I actually kind of enjoy it there :)

Offline TheTigerUK

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 04:09:49 PM »
 ^-^ We have lift off.
I have been in Deepshit many times; the older I get, the easier it is  to get there. I actually kind of enjoy it there :)

Offline kai_h

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 07:50:43 AM »
Well, my three pronged tool managed to get the caseback off with no scratches, then after having a peek inside and putting it back together, I had another go with the magic yellow ball.


The yellow ball was a lot easier to unscrew the caseback, but a bit harder to get started - on something that's quite tight, you will probably need to use the tool to start it and then unscrew it with the ball.


I don't know what the correct technique is (or even the correct name) for the three pronged tool, but I found that if I rested it on the caseback and tightened up the middle thumbscrew to get two of the prongs relatively tight in the notches on the caseback, then I could hold it in place and tighten up the handle screw and it seemed to grip pretty well. You need to apply a LOT of downwards force as the last thing you want is the tool slipping out of the notches and scratching the case!


This is the first time I've opened a watch up!

Offline kai_h

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 07:55:11 AM »
Oh, and regarding my Manilla Special - gasket? what gasket!

Offline daveeb

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 11:14:11 AM »
I have noticed an interesting fact when I opened my case back, strange scratches on the inside of the back, on close examining, notes left by previous repairers, very interesting !!!!

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2010, 11:41:03 AM »
I have noticed an interesting fact when I opened my case back, strange scratches on the inside of the back, on close examining, notes left by previous repairers, very interesting !!!!


Yes exact same thing on some of mine! Looks like a date etched in - service or inspection perhaps as you suggest? - in a funny kind of way lends a bit of history to it!

Offline ADB

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2010, 12:46:39 PM »
I have noticed an interesting fact when I opened my case back, strange scratches on the inside of the back, on close examining, notes left by previous repairers, very interesting !!!!
Hi,
I believe this is commonplace practice among watchmakers, if the case back inner face is not decorated (i.e. for inexpensive watches). It provides an indication of when the watch was last serviced and by who. Of course for 30 year old watches serviced a few times by a watchmaker on the other side of the world, the usefulness of this practice can be questioned.  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Cheers,
Andrew

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 01:03:39 PM »
Hi,
I believe this is commonplace practice among watchmakers, if the case back inner face is not decorated (i.e. for inexpensive watches). It provides an indication of when the watch was last serviced and by who. Of course for 30 year old watches serviced a few times by a watchmaker on the other side of the world, the usefulness of this practice can be questioned.  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Cheers,


Echo that, and especially given that there isn't really any guarantee that the caseback hasn't been swapped over for any reason during the course of it's life..


As an aside, I'm always a bit sceptical of the 'servicing' as advertised in the sales pitch of some of the ebay sales from far flung shores - a visit to a local, reputable service centre is certainly worth consideration, in the UK such as either Steve Burrage or Richard Askham for example.

Offline ADB

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 01:33:55 PM »
...
As an aside, I'm always a bit sceptical of the 'servicing' as advertised in the sales pitch of some of the ebay sales from far flung shores - a visit to a local, reputable service centre is certainly worth consideration, in the UK such as either Steve Burrage or Richard Askham for example.
And I'll echo that.
 :)
I actually feel safer when I read "service history unknown" i.e. the watch hasn't been serviced for ages.  :D :D :D
Cheers,
Andrew

Offline TheTigerUK

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 01:39:20 PM »
When ever i receive a watch the first thing i do after cleaning it is to change gaskets, i don't always service the movement unless needed but not changing the gaskets is false economy in my eyes.
I have been in Deepshit many times; the older I get, the easier it is  to get there. I actually kind of enjoy it there :)

Offline Seikosonic

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 01:59:08 PM »
[edit] I just noticed you mentioned putting tape on the back cover so I've removed this bit of advice..[/edit][/i]
The ball (I have the pink one because i'm comfortable with my masculinity) works well for opening and closing although your final should be snugged with the wrench to assure the gasket is properly seated/compressed.

When putting the case back back on I use the ball and and turn the cover counterclockwise until it "drops in" or aligns to the threads and seats squarely. After that, turn clockwise to tighten.

_Tim
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 02:08:00 PM by Seikosonic »

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 02:07:25 PM »

When putting the case back back on I use the ball and and turn the cover counterclockwise until it "drops in" or aligns to the threads and seats squarely. After that, turn clockwise to tighten.



yup that's good - similarly useful when tightening the crown so as to avoid any issues of cross threading or damage to the crown or tube threads!

Offline TheTigerUK

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 08:43:59 PM »
Often when replacing a case back i use two cocktail sticks, i "feel" the back on to the case and gently rotate the back until it catches the case thread and then tighten it up a couple of turns using the "sticks", this way like the ball no marks and no chance of cross threading as using the sticks i can put no pressure/force onto the operation.

I have been in Deepshit many times; the older I get, the easier it is  to get there. I actually kind of enjoy it there :)

Offline rileynp

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 11:54:39 PM »
I   don't know what the correct technique is (or even the correct name) for   the three pronged tool, but I found that if I rested it on the caseback   and tightened up the middle thumbscrew to get two of the prongs   relatively tight in the notches on the caseback, then I could hold it in   place and tighten up the handle screw and it seemed to grip pretty   well. You need to apply a LOT of downwards force as the last thing you   want is the tool slipping out of the notches and scratching the case!
  Hi Kai_h,
  You technique is sound, but one thing I would mention is that too much   downwards force can definitely be a bad thing- as it can damage (strip) the   threads in the case or on the caseback.  By applying downward force, you   are creating more friction for your turning to overcome, which can make   it even harder to open a stubborn case.  The best type of tool in these   situations is one that locks the case and the opener in place relative   to each other, so that extra downward force is not necessary to keep the   tool engaged with the case back.  A good example is the Bergeon 5700   case opener tool, which has a threaded stop to firmly engage the tool without extra downward force.  The large wheel on top also gives much better leverage. (not my   pic):


While the expense of one of these (you could get a brand new Sumo and then some for the same money) might be beyond occasional use, I do have to say that the bare minimum in quality one should get is the LG or Jaxa case opener if they are keen on not scratching a case back.  I actually prefer the LG over the Jaxa, but my reasons are petty and without merit- both are quality tools.  The cheapo ones will work, but they make it too easy to slip, especially as they begin to age/wear.
 
--Noah R.

Offline TheTigerUK

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2010, 12:10:26 AM »
 I always keep a sewing pin in a pin vice as I find this tool   comes in very handy for lots of little jobs like removing the   gaskets.

Please note i would NEVER use this "tool" if i intended reusing the gasket because of the chance of damaging the gasket with the needle point.
I have been in Deepshit many times; the older I get, the easier it is  to get there. I actually kind of enjoy it there :)

Offline lalanda

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2010, 11:57:40 AM »
Can the case back be sufficiently tightened using a sticky ball, or will we indeed need the jaxa-type tool to fully tighten it (compress gasket, etc.)?
(Also, will we require a case holder?)

Offline ADB

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 01:12:39 PM »
Can the case back be sufficiently tightened using a sticky ball, or will we indeed need the jaxa-type tool to fully tighten it (compress gasket, etc.)?
(Also, will we require a case holder?)
Hi,
All these tools: the ball, the jaxa-type tool and the case holder, are imho "must have" tools, and they are all relatively inexpensive if you look around on El Bayo.
Also imho the ball will provide a tight enough case back, if properly used. But then I am not going diving with any vintage diver's watch, ever.
Cheers,
Andrew

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 01:42:26 PM »

Also imho the ball will provide a tight enough case back, if properly used. But then I am not going diving with any vintage diver's watch, ever.
Cheers,


Hm.. that prompts a question that's been on my mind for a bit - with renewing the seals/gaskets and application of a bit of silicon grease, what kind of waterproofing is being achieved? I mean, I don't suppose it'll ever have factory fresh waterproofing as spec, but with new seals and ensuring everything is nipped tight...?
 
Obviously pressure testing would confirm, but I can't see what else there would be to 're-proof' the watch other than seals and silicon - what do we think chaps?

Offline ADB

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 04:01:06 PM »

Hm.. that prompts a question that's been on my mind for a bit - with renewing the seals/gaskets and application of a bit of silicon grease, what kind of waterproofing is being achieved? I mean, I don't suppose it'll ever have factory fresh waterproofing as spec, but with new seals and ensuring everything is nipped tight...?
 
Obviously pressure testing would confirm, but I can't see what else there would be to 're-proof' the watch other than seals and silicon - what do we think chaps?
Well, apart from the case back gasket, there are the crown and crystal gaskets too, and I don't intend to change either, so personally I would settle for not-having-to-take-off-the-6309-when-washing-my-hands water resistance. But that's just me, I am comfortable with this kind of limitation.
 :)
Cheers,
Andrew

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 04:15:51 PM »

Hm.. that prompts a question that's been on my mind for a bit - with renewing the seals/gaskets and application of a bit of silicon grease, what kind of waterproofing is being achieved? I mean, I don't suppose it'll ever have factory fresh waterproofing as spec, but with new seals and ensuring everything is nipped tight...?
 
Obviously pressure testing would confirm, but I can't see what else there would be to 're-proof' the watch other than seals and silicon - what do we think chaps?


Sorry should have been a bit more specific - I was going slightly off topic with this, and meant with renewing all seals, ie bezel, crystal, crown and caseback....! Perhaps a topic for later on!
 
Howie

Offline rileynp

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 12:08:38 AM »

Hm.. that prompts a question that's been on my mind for a bit - with renewing the seals/gaskets and application of a bit of silicon grease, what kind of waterproofing is being achieved? I mean, I don't suppose it'll ever have factory fresh waterproofing as spec, but with new seals and ensuring everything is nipped tight...?
 
Obviously pressure testing would confirm, but I can't see what else there would be to 're-proof' the watch other than seals and silicon - what do we think chaps?

Here are a few points to ponder, Howie.  Water resistance is a dynamic state and depends primarily on the condition of the sealing surfaces (those surfaces which make direct contact with gaskets) and the sealing gaskets themselves (so the bezel gasket doesn't count in the 6309 diver's as it's job is to provide even friction when rotating the bezel).  An obvious addition to this is the physical structure itself- you can't have a gaping hole in the side of the case or in the caseback.  You can have all sealing surfaces in excellent condition, but with bad gaskets, the case may not be sealed.  You can all have gaskets in excellent condition (i.e. "new"), but with bad sealing surfaces, the case may not be sealed.  The extent of how sealed the watch is depends on how good of condition these components are, though typically if a watch does not pass at high pressure, it will not pass at low pressure, and vice versa.  Not always, and especially less so with extreme pressures.

Another thing that comes into play is the mechanical fitment of the parts necessary for sealing- in the 6309 diver's this would be the crystal retaining ring and the case tube that is frictioned into the case.  In order to make the tube as sealed as possible, Seiko welded it into place, so really one does not have to worry about water being able to enter between the case tube and case frame for this model- for all intents and purposes, it is like one piece.  Not all tubes are like this from every watch company, so when doing water resistance maintance, very often the case tube should be reset.  The crystal retaining ring can cause problems in achieving the best seal possible if it is no longer evenly tight- compressing the crystal gasket by pushing down on the crystal.  Water resistance pressure and vacuum testing will verify the state of these elements as you mentioned, but these are static tests at a given point in time, they cannot say what the watch will do under x conditions after y amount of time.

Replacing all the gaskets is certainly the best thing to do for a watch that will be worn regularly- whether it is a diver's watch or not.  Just doing this alone does not ensure the watch is water resistant- I've had a small piece of lint on the case back gasket cause a case to fail a pressure test- it was enough to allow air around it and inside the case when put under pressure.  If any one is seriously considering using a watch in water after they've replaced the gaskets, it would be advisable to have the case pressure tested- for a small fee a local watchmaker should be able to take care of that if properly equipped.  This is not a guarantee of water resistance, but does offer evidence that the watch is currently in a sealed state.

And a note about silicone grease I've been meaning to bring up- it has no magical restorative powers when it comes to rubber gaskets- it is a false economy to think silicone added to a gasket is just as good as replacing the gasket.  It can help reduce friction of those gaskets which undergo frictional forces- bezel gaskets and crown gaskets for example.  Everyone says to grease back gasket as well, but really this should be viewed as an action done to help in seating the gasket when tightening and loosening the back- to help keep the gasket in place and not be picked up in one spot or another as the back is tightened.  In some case designs, it can actually make it harder to seat the gasket and get a good seal if silicone grease is applied to the gasket.  Just a thought I've been meaning to put out there.

Well, apart from the case back gasket, there are the crown and crystal gaskets too, and I don't intend to change either, so personally I would settle for not-having-to-take-off-the-6309-when-washing-my-hands water resistance. But that's just me, I am comfortable with this kind of limitation.
 :)
Cheers,
Andrew, I'd suggest you rethink at least the crown gasket- the crown gasket is typically very old in 6309's that haven't been well-maintained (which ones have?) and falls into one extreme on the crusty-slimy scale.  Being such a relatively small gasket (compared to the crystal gasket), and with the crown an attractive place for water to collect even from the occasional hand-washing, it can more easily allow moisture inside compared to the case back or crystal.  Hand washing can be viewed as just as dangerous as diving to 150 meters (who does that anyways?) with a watch whose set of gaskets have not been replaced- it is typically the easiest for water to get past old gaskets with no additional outside pressure- which can act as a further seal.  Watches are tested at low pressure and then high pressure for this reason.  Then again, maybe you are a careful hand-washer, so that water does not have a chance to splash onto the watch case;-)
--Noah R.

Offline howie77

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 07:12:30 AM »

Here are a few points to ponder, Howie.  Water resistance is a dynamic state and depends primarily on the condition of the sealing surfaces (those surfaces which make direct contact with gaskets) and the sealing gaskets themselves (so the bezel gasket doesn't count in the 6309 diver's as it's job is to provide even friction when rotating the bezel).  An obvious addition to this is the physical structure itself- you can't have a gaping hole in the side of the case or in the caseback.  You can have all sealing surfaces in excellent condition, but with bad gaskets, the case may not be sealed.  You can all have gaskets in excellent condition (i.e. "new"), but with bad sealing surfaces, the case may not be sealed.  The extent of how sealed the watch is depends on how good of condition these components are, though typically if a watch does not pass at high pressure, it will not pass at low pressure, and vice versa.  Not always, and especially less so with extreme pressures.

Another thing that comes into play is the mechanical fitment of the parts necessary for sealing- in the 6309 diver's this would be the crystal retaining ring and the case tube that is frictioned into the case.  In order to make the tube as sealed as possible, Seiko welded it into place, so really one does not have to worry about water being able to enter between the case tube and case frame for this model- for all intents and purposes, it is like one piece.  Not all tubes are like this from every watch company, so when doing water resistance maintance, very often the case tube should be reset.  The crystal retaining ring can cause problems in achieving the best seal possible if it is no longer evenly tight- compressing the crystal gasket by pushing down on the crystal.  Water resistance pressure and vacuum testing will verify the state of these elements as you mentioned, but these are static tests at a given point in time, they cannot say what the watch will do under x conditions after y amount of time.

Replacing all the gaskets is certainly the best thing to do for a watch that will be worn regularly- whether it is a diver's watch or not.  Just doing this alone does not ensure the watch is water resistant- I've had a small piece of lint on the case back gasket cause a case to fail a pressure test- it was enough to allow air around it and inside the case when put under pressure.  If any one is seriously considering using a watch in water after they've replaced the gaskets, it would be advisable to have the case pressure tested- for a small fee a local watchmaker should be able to take care of that if properly equipped.  This is not a guarantee of water resistance, but does offer evidence that the watch is currently in a sealed state.

And a note about silicone grease I've been meaning to bring up- it has no magical restorative powers when it comes to rubber gaskets- it is a false economy to think silicone added to a gasket is just as good as replacing the gasket.  It can help reduce friction of those gaskets which undergo frictional forces- bezel gaskets and crown gaskets for example.  Everyone says to grease back gasket as well, but really this should be viewed as an action done to help in seating the gasket when tightening and loosening the back- to help keep the gasket in place and not be picked up in one spot or another as the back is tightened.  In some case designs, it can actually make it harder to seat the gasket and get a good seal if silicone grease is applied to the gasket.  Just a thought I've been meaning to put out there.

Andrew, I'd suggest you rethink at least the crown gasket- the crown gasket is typically very old in 6309's that haven't been well-maintained (which ones have?) and falls into one extreme on the crusty-slimy scale.  Being such a relatively small gasket (compared to the crystal gasket), and with the crown an attractive place for water to collect even from the occasional hand-washing, it can more easily allow moisture inside compared to the case back or crystal.  Hand washing can be viewed as just as dangerous as diving to 150 meters (who does that anyways?) with a watch whose set of gaskets have not been replaced- it is typically the easiest for water to get past old gaskets with no additional outside pressure- which can act as a further seal.  Watches are tested at low pressure and then high pressure for this reason.  Then again, maybe you are a careful hand-washer, so that water does not have a chance to splash onto the watch case ;-)



Noah, thank you - really appreciate the detail you've gone into here, a very interesting and informative read.


Cheers, Howie

Offline ADB

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 09:37:24 AM »
...
Andrew, I'd suggest you rethink at least the crown gasket- the crown gasket is typically very old in 6309's that haven't been well-maintained (which ones have?) and falls into one extreme on the crusty-slimy scale.  Being such a relatively small gasket (compared to the crystal gasket), and with the crown an attractive place for water to collect even from the occasional hand-washing, it can more easily allow moisture inside compared to the case back or crystal.  Hand washing can be viewed as just as dangerous as diving to 150 meters (who does that anyways?) with a watch whose set of gaskets have not been replaced- it is typically the easiest for water to get past old gaskets with no additional outside pressure- which can act as a further seal.  Watches are tested at low pressure and then high pressure for this reason.  Then again, maybe you are a careful hand-washer, so that water does not have a chance to splash onto the watch case;-)
Hi Noah,
Thanks for the heads up! So I guess the crown gasket (it's a very small o-ring, isn't it?) has to be replaced in most of my vintage watches that have one, including obviously the 6309's.
One more lesson learned and I hope John will show us with his excellent macro photos how this should be done!
Cheers,
Andrew

Offline speedbird119

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 02:39:25 AM »
Here are my caseback opening pics.


Opened the case with my Jaxa-esque opener. Let's see--some minor pitting, gaskets are decent, but no movement holder. Also a wee bit of mold on the oscillating weight, and...



Oh, but wait there is a bit of a surprise. Note the errant wheel, I have no idea where it came from since the movement is working properly and keeps good time in fact. I guess we'll find out soon enough.  ::)



The inside of the case back plate has the date 11/99 scratched in. I assume a previous service. 1999, wow how time flies...




Best,


Mike

Offline shun

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Re: Part 8: Tools and methods for removing the case back.
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2010, 12:19:33 AM »
Hello Mike, I've recently disassembled a 6309A and never saw that specific wheel, but I never got to the calendar mechanism, i've not worked on the dial side of the watch, so if that wheel is indeed from the movement, probaby will be from the calendar works.. if that helps for anything..!




I've just checked the technical manual and have not encountered such part, maybe I missed it or it really doesn't belong in your watch..!


Cheers.