Topic: yet another bellmatic I am looking at (Read 1560 times)

kabong · « **on:** June 06, 2011, 10:00:13 PM »

Hi,

I am determined to get a Bellmatic soon.

I fear this one will be out of my budget, but I would again appreciate any comments.
I have done as much research as I can myself, and it has made it onto my list of "good ones", but I would like some more opinions.

Thanks!

StartSomething · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2011, 07:25:23 AM »

This one is looking pretty good, IMO.

To me it looks unmodified apart from (an apparently recent) case refinish job, which seems to have been done professionally, however.
There is very little patina on the dial and a small paint loss on the minute hand.

To be honest, that watch is on my list too, so I think it is good ;-)

Best,
Hermann

kabong · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:18:14 PM »

Thanks.

I fear I will not get this one as my budget is even tighter now.

There was an unusual last-minute bid retraction on another watch which has left me as the winning bidder.... but I had already put a bid in on something else.... I might have to buy both now

Perhaps somebody here knows how it works on eBay?

I bid x, somebody bid x+10, which was then retracted.... BUT it was only me and them bidding since x-50. If their bid was retracted as they could not be verified, surely ALL their bids should be retracted and not just their higher one? I can understand if there had been lots of other bidders.... but it was only me and them!!

DAHASCO · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:42:46 PM »

kabong, Retract you bid also

kabong · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2011, 01:16:55 PM »

I can't, as I am now the winning bidder!

I have sent him a not saying I want it cancelled as I have just found out that the bidder who had the bid retracte has only every bought items from the seller!!!!!!!!

I have reported the bid to eBay too.

Sigh.....

unclepenn1 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2011, 01:18:19 AM »

Email me the auction and I will check it out--maybe I will take it off your hands and make everyone happy

larry_bouligny -at- yahoo dot com

kabong · « **Reply #6 on:** June 09, 2011, 09:27:49 AM »

The transaction is cancelled now, so I am back on my bellmatic quest (with a limited budget though!)

He has relisted the item. It was a Citizen multi function digital watch.

StartSomething · « **Reply #7 on:** June 09, 2011, 11:09:26 PM »

Mhh..

May I ask whether there is a specific model you are looking for and which condition it needs to be in?

Best,
Hermann

JohnN · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2011, 03:01:54 AM »

Quote from: kabong on June 09, 2011, 09:27:49 AM

The transaction is cancelled now, so I am back on my bellmatic quest (with a limited budget though!)

He has relisted the item. It was a Citizen multi function digital watch.

Kabong,
What Bell-matics interest you?

There are more than a dozen styles, with numerous variations within each style, and a choice of 17J, 21J, and 27J movements. And that is just for starters. Do you want it ready-to-wear? What accuracy will you accept? Do you care if it is inauthentic (a "franken-Belle")?
Best of luck!

kabong · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2011, 06:02:48 AM »

I am not interested in the cushion cases really, as I have a narrow wrist.

I just want something presentable. I prefer rounded, smooth shaped designs, but I would be prepared to get a more plain design if I felt it was more authentic.

For the budget I have, I am prepared to buy a watch that has been refurbed, possibly with replacement BUT MATCHING parts. But I don't want a frankenwatch.

I do have my eye on one now which I think fits the bill exactly. It's not the most exciting looking bellmatic, but it seems to have been refurbed well and sympathetically.
The seller seems honest in their description:

This sale is for a serviced vintage Seiko 4006-6080T - BELL-MATIC 17j Automatic Men's Watch with day/date, March 1976.

The watch has a stainless steel case, original stainless steel seiko bracelet, silver rotate inner bezel for set up the working alarm.

The 17 JEWELS automatic movement is working well, just serviced.

The crystal is in good conditions the dial perfect, the case was polished.

The original arms and marks re-lumed.

Again, I'd be interested in people's opinions on this one. I'm afraid my budget will not stretch the the snazzier designs and top condition watches.

I think it is identical to one in the photo archive.

To be honest... 1) the price seems right on this, but perhaps there is some reason for this I don't understand and 2) I'm worried that by bringing the watch to attention here I will be alerting people to it and they will buy it instead!

StartSomething · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2011, 07:29:56 AM »

I like that particular model a lot. This model exactly was the first belle I bought.
It has quite a unique style, with the edgy case (which by then reminded me of an IWC Engineer) and the plain dial and the wide integrated bracelet.

It wears great (see my Avatar pic, where I have the blue version on my wrist) and has a lot of presence on my 7.1 " wrist.

Now concerning your particular watch (which I was following too ;-)):

Firstly, it is a 4006-6080 case, but a 4006-6100T dial.
- the dial appears dirty to me?
- rotor is incorrect for the production year (belongs to an earlier model) - more of a cosmetic/originality issue, should not be a technical problem
- bracelet is from a 604x model

The case has certainly been restored, however is overpolished, IMO (look at the CSB).

For the right price however, I think you are not doing anything wrong! Just consider whether you will always want to wear your Belle on a bracelet (a strap will not really work on this case) and make sure that the bracelet is in wearable condition and long enough for your wrists (these integrated bracelets can be a pain in the ... if you need spares/replacements).

Best,
Hermann

kabong · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2011, 08:49:37 AM »

now I feel depressed...

- OK, when I look in the archives on bellmatics.com it says the 6080 case came with the 6100 dial. Is the T a significance?

- I have no idea how to spot different rotors etc. I guess this at least shows it has been repaired/serviced, which is better than not having been. I think I am OK with this
- The strap... I think I am going to have to be OK with this, as changed straps on watches seems to be almost a given!
- I never noticed the spots on the dial. Not overly offputting.

But I have to consider the price. It is a smart looking watch and the price seems OK.

I don't know what to think now. I don't want to rush into anything!

I usually go with my gut feeling and I have all the time in the world, so perhaps I will skip this one.

JohnN · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2011, 08:58:16 PM »

Quote from: kabong on June 10, 2011, 08:49:37 AM

now I feel depressed...

- OK, when I look in the archives on bellmatics.com it says the 6080 case came with the 6100 dial. Is the T a significance?
- I have no idea how to spot different rotors etc. I guess this at least shows it has been repaired/serviced, which is better than not having been. I think I am OK with this
- The strap... I think I am going to have to be OK with this, as changed straps on watches seems to be almost a given!
- I never noticed the spots on the dial. Not overly offputting.

But I have to consider the price. It is a smart looking watch and the price seems OK.

I don't know what to think now. I don't want to rush into anything!

I usually go with my gut feeling and I have all the time in the world, so perhaps I will skip this one.

Don't be depressed. Unless 100% authenticity down to the very last screw is essential, worrying about the rotor seems a bit excessive to me.
The dial is correct for this case style.

And, while I defer to Hermann's research regarding proper bracelets, I have seen -608x stainless steel models on this "big link" bracelet ....

You are using your head by going slowly, especially if you want to make a good first Belle purchase, and asking questions here.
If you are looking for the less bulky case style, I suggest keeping your eyes open for 4006-601x's, -606x's, -607x's, and -701x and -702x models.
Good luck!

kabong · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2011, 09:59:27 AM »

Thanks for that.

I did put a bid in on that first one in the thread but it went very high!

StartSomething · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2011, 11:37:50 AM »

Quote from: kabong on June 10, 2011, 08:49:37 AM

now I feel depressed...

...

I don't know what to think now. I don't want to rush into anything!

I usually go with my gut feeling and I have all the time in the world, so perhaps I will skip this one.

First of all, my apologies for making you feel bad - that was never my intention.

I myself am a very picky buyer, feeling frustrated from buying Vintage watches from the bay.
I feel that even with good preparation, at least half the watches I bought had some hidden flaws, and a good third of them are in a condition that is beyond repair (over polished cases, ruined dials/hands) etc.

So please do not misunderstand me, it was not my intention to keep you from buying your first Belle - I was merely trying to bring some points to your attention that could be potential disappointments later on. Whether you care about these (sometimes minuscle, e. g. rotor) flaws is up to you, of course.

Having said that, I am pretty confident that you should be able to buy a good Bell-Matic for 200 $. I bought some of my Belles for much lower than that and had them restored to almost mint condition - but then, it was a gamble, and in other occasions, that gamble did not pay off ;-)

I think you are doing the absolute right thing to take your time and ask people who have already made the mistakes that you want to avoid

Looking forward to discussing the next watch!

Best,
Hermann

kabong · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2011, 12:29:42 PM »

no need for apologies!

I do think that white one would be a good first Bellmatic.

I still have my eye on a few other things too and I might bid on them if they don't go too high.

If I miss out on them that Belle would suit me very nicely. I am slightly put off by the plainness of it but my wife likes it and that counts for alot!!

kabong · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2011, 12:34:34 PM »

Doh that belle is gone now! oh well!

jole777 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2011, 08:27:15 PM »

Kabong,
I saw that you're asking for a good Bell-Matic <200USD.

I may be able to help you if you want a good all original white 4006-7001 17J Bell. It's from my collection and as with all my watches it's completely serviced and regulated with my watchmaker (I saved all my receipts, so you can be sure that its been completely disassembled and cleaned).
I even got a new crystal and leather strap for it. The case has some nicks but it is in very good shape with absolutely no dirt or rust on screwback and dial is in mint condition. I think you will be pleased with it, I own 5 more Bells and simply love them.
PM if your interested.

JohnN · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2011, 01:56:09 AM »

Sounds very nice, jole77! Perhaps you and kabong can discuss this via private message (or email) so we avoid any hints that the Belle Forum is a marketplace for anything other than information and ideas.

By the way, an Australian -7012 27J just went for $322 (plus AU$30 postage) on eb$y. It was nice, but.... Wow! I should have waited until this year to reduce my collection!

Quote from: jole777 on June 11, 2011, 08:27:15 PM

Kabong,
I saw that you're asking for a good Bell-Matic <200USD.

I may be able to help you if you want a good all original white 4006-7001 17J Bell. It's from my collection and as with all my watches it's completely serviced and regulated with my watchmaker (I saved all my receipts, so you can be sure that its been completely disassembled and cleaned).
I even got a new crystal and leather strap for it. The case has some nicks but it is in very good shape with absolutely no dirt or rust on screwback and dial is in mint condition. I think you will be pleased with it, I own 5 more Bells and simply love them.
PM if your interested.

StartSomething · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2011, 02:57:55 AM »

How come I am never offered good watches from forum members?

Anyway, sounds like a fair deal to me!!

Best,
Hermann

StartSomething · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2011, 03:01:22 AM »

Quote from: JohnN on June 12, 2011, 01:56:09 AM

... By the way, an Australian -7012 27J just went for $322 (plus AU$30 postage) on eb$y.

John,

what I find so strange is the huge variability of prices achieved on the bay - another example of bidding wars?
Well, I am currently selling my first Vintage Seiko on the bay, so - unlike when I act as a buyer - I for the first time hope for some sort of bidding frenzy

Best,
Hermann

kabong · « **Reply #21 on:** June 12, 2011, 07:00:54 AM »

Thanks for the info jole777, it is a nice looking watch.

Keeping my options open..... here is the next one on my list. Now, I do have a bid in on a non-belle on eBay, but this belle finishes just 1 hour after it, so I want to have my facts straight in advance. It passes all my tests, but let's see how it fares on here!

Dial and case codes match.
Hands look fine.
Signs of age, but looks clean to me.
I assume the case has been polished.
Bracelet looks good/potentially matching.

My only concern is with the movement. I wonder if there is hazing on that main plate on top and if this is an indication of a dirty movement that has been cleaned up. I would be very wary of any problems with movements as I do not have a local watch service person.

Here we go.....

Thanks again!

jole777 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 12, 2011, 07:23:34 AM »

A member brought to my attention that the dial number and a case code on my Bell-Matic does not match.

I have a white Belle 4006-7001 serial number is 0061XX and the dial number is 7080T
I am 99% sure it is original since I bought it wasn't even serviced/opened.

So my question is:
Are the cases and dial guide 100% correct or not?

Because I noticed that another of my watch white 4006-7002 with caseback 2296XX also has 7080T dial and I couldn't even find a 1972/82 production year on cases guide.
Also a silver /gray 4006-7000 serial 8N11XX is not even mentioned there (7070 dial).

I believe that all them are ALL original Bell-Matics. At least I thought so but I better check with you guys.

StartSomething · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2011, 05:32:00 PM »

Quote from: kabong on June 12, 2011, 07:00:54 AM

Thanks for the info jole777, it is a nice looking watch.

here is the next one on my list. Now, I do have a bid in on a non-belle on eBay, but this belle finishes just 1 hour after it, so I want to have my facts straight in advance. It passes all my tests, but let's see how it fares on here!

Dial and case codes match.
Hands look fine.
Signs of age, but looks clean to me.
I assume the case has been polished.
Bracelet looks good/potentially matching.

My only concern is with the movement. I wonder if there is hazing on that main plate on top and if this is an indication of a dirty movement that has been cleaned up. I would be very wary of any problems with movements as I do not have a local watch service person.
Thanks again!

Let me adress your concerns first.

IMO, this sellers describes his offerings pretty good, however, I find that usually his watches are overpolished, which is also the case (for me) for this watch. Dial, hands and alarm ring appear to be originals, but show some signs of age (and are potentially relumed).

Bracelet - as far as I can tell - is one of the originals for that watch, however, spring bars somehow look strange?

Crystal is a replacement, the shape of which does not match the original (the original crystal does not have that sort of 'dome' shape)

Movement appears to be in decent condition, the stain on the rotor (which - compare to the 6080 above from the same period - is the correct version) is IMO not too worrysome. What should be of your concern however, is the apparently missing casing spring (or do my eyes betray me?). These can be a little hard to come by.

One general remark: especially in the case that you intend to collect a few more Vintages, I think it is essential to find a good, trustworthy watchmaker and acquire some very basic watchmaking skills yourself, that allow you to e. g. change/replace a casing spring - others may be of different opinion, of course. I actually found the journey quite fun let alone fascinating ;-)

Best,
Hermann

StartSomething · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2011, 05:49:51 PM »

Quote from: jole777 on June 12, 2011, 07:23:34 AM

A member brought to my attention that the dial number and a case code on my Bell-Matic does not match.

I have a white Belle 4006-7001 serial number is 0061XX and the dial number is 7080T
I am 99% sure it is original since I bought it wasn't even serviced/opened.

So my question is:
Are the cases and dial guide 100% correct or not?

Because I noticed that another of my watch white 4006-7002 with caseback 2296XX also has 7080T dial and I couldn't even find a 1972/82 production year on cases guide.
Also a silver /gray 4006-7000 serial 8N11XX is not even mentioned there (7070 dial).

I believe that all them are ALL original Bell-Matics. At least I thought so but I better check with you guys.

Ivan,

I am sorry to say that at this moment I cannot answer your question. I do not yet have a correlation between submodels and dials. All I can say is that the 7080T dial is the lumed 17J 700x dial, available in charcoal, blue and silver (SS) and charcoal and silver (SGP). That particular blue variant appears to be pretty rare, my photograph archive does contain only two of these species, one of which is a franken. What I find a little strange is the fact that on your watch the hands have a black center line, which is specific for the silver-dialled watches (for better readability, complemented by black paint on the indices). There is no black paint on the blue 7080T dial indices, but then again, this is only speculation.

Thank you for bringing up the point, it is certainly very interesting!!

Best,
Hermann

Author Topic: yet another bellmatic I am looking at (Read 1560 times)