Waffle Wars: Vintage Seiko vs William Jean's Type II

[jason_recliner]

If you've even a passing interest in Seiko or dive watches, you'll have heard of the 6105. A 60's / 70's era classic, it is a favourite amongst many enthusiasts due to its rugged style, overall high quality, and military heritage (it was a popular choice during the Vietnam conflict, as immortalised by Captain Willard (Martin Sheen) in Apocalypse Now).

Although it is not a particularly rare model, many pieces have led a long, hard life. Original examples in good condition are therefore in high demand and sell in the vicinity of US$1,000+ in the current market. The original 'waffle' straps, in particular, tend to deteriorate with age, becoming brittle and susceptible to cracking. They are now quite hard to come by, and in good to excellent condition can easily sell for US$300+.

The relative scarcity, high price, and frailty of the waffles mean that many owners are reluctant to wear their 6105s on the OEM strap. Although the 6105 is very versatile, and well suited to a variety of straps and bracelets, there is something special about the waffle. It is unique, it has character, and it just looks right.

Recognising that many 6105 owners want the waffle style but aren't prepared to risk their precious originals, William Jean recently released his Type II waffle strap. How does it compare to the original?





Dimensions

The Type II is for the most part a 1:1 reproduction of the original. Without direct comparison with an OEM, the Type II appeared indistinguishable to my eye. Length, width, and thickness of both straps are near enough to identical (without resorting to digital callipers). The taper of both pieces, the radii of the long piece ends, and the keepers, are also identical as far as I can tell.

There seemed to be some minor differences between the Type II and my particular example of the original, which became evident with close, direct comparison:
· The ratio of ribbed to waffle textured sections. The waffle section on mine appeared to be very slightly longer, the ribbed section very slightly shorter.
· The locations of the holes don't appear to correspond exactly.
· The profile of the section through which the buckle extends is rounder and possibly thicker on the Type II. The same section on my original is squarer, more irregular, and the material surrounding the buckle spring bar appears slightly thinner.

Materials and Finish

The rubber / polymer compound used for both straps is, if not identical, then very very similar. So close are the compounds used that it is possible any perceived differences are due to the age difference only. For example, the Type II is shinier and slightly stiffer than the original.

The underside of each features the following markings:

SEIKO

JAPAN

Differences in materials and finish are as follows:
· The waffle section feels sharper and rougher on the original.
· Edges on the polygonal underside of the original are more sharply defined
· Moulding marks are more evident on the Type II, specifically on some edges of the keepers, and on the 'case' edge of the strap (the thick part through which the spring bar is inserted)





Hardware

Both buckles feature the following markings on the underside:

SEIKO. ST. STEEL. JAPAN. G

The buckles exhibit the most obvious differences between Type II and original:
· The text engraving on the original is much finer on the original than on the Type II.
· The original appears to have been forged from circular section steel. The edges of the 'flat' section, as they taper back into the circular section pieces which abut the strap, are quite sharply defined (on both the top and lower surfaces). This effect is not evident on the Type II.
· The tongue on of the original buckle is much more sharply curved.

Conclusions

This comparison has intentionally focussed on the (detail) differences between my original Seiko waffle strap and William Jean's Type II waffle strap. The reason for this is that the straps are so similar that, functionally, there is no real difference between them. The differences amount to minor aesthetic aspects, and nothing more.

By today's standards, the waffle strap is a bit narrow, a bit thin. William could have chosen to modernise it (I hesitate to say improve it), as he has done so successfully with his Super Oyster. But this would dilute the essential character of the waffle, which makes the waffle what it is. Instead he has produced an incredibly faithful recreation of the original.

I feel that William has taken the correct approach with his Type II waffle. There is no shortage of thicker / softer / wider modern straps which can be fitted to the 6105 if desired. But the waffle is the waffle. And, unlike Seiko's oyster bracelet, the waffle is not something which can be obviously improved upon.

I think a lot of 6105 owners (most?), like me, appreciate the waffle just the way it is. The Type II allows us to retain the quintessential character of the 6105, without having to worry about destroying an expensive strap which is difficult to replace.

As much as I appreciate owning the original waffle from an enthusiast point of view, I don't need to have it fitted to enjoy wearing the 6105. The strongest endorsement I can give Will's new strap is that I've wrapped the original in plastic, and from now on my 6105 will swap between NATO and the Type II.   

[Seikozen]

Hi jason
Yes all you say is true. IMO   there is one Point I would add. I was very excited and still am, it is the 8th Day? or so I am wearing Wills Waffle  She is Strong, comfy and all you say, I had told Will from my first Order and Post to try to give Best Honest feed back I could. I also see his Efforts as a GIFT to us All.


What I have noticed and Reported to Will is The Looseness of the Buckle  It is the Only Knock I have  . Because I can see the Great effort and commitment I trust he will look into this  for the Next Run.


I have bought 8 straps, to date, a few for wearing a couple as Gifts and the rest to put on many of my 6105 Keepers


I find the Buckle a Bit Wider then the Strap, I am Hoping I can send to one of the watchmakers  or ask Swedfreak Jonathan  if he could fix this.
I have a a Pkg ready to mail to Swedfreak and I will include one of the Waffles, if any one can remedy this he can.


let me end saying  If this was the way, it would have to stay, I would be Very Grateful for having the Chance to Own them.
As you said I have a few NOS Waffles I have never worn for 5 min, for all the reasons you mentioned.


The ORG I have are Supple and seem to be fine, but I would not take the chance, This is were Wills Waffles are the GIFT they are, I have EIGHT Days of just enjoying
wearing a 6105-8000 Winder on this GREAT Waffle 2


I am a Klutz with tying to work on Watches  But I look at the Buckle and think "If the bar was a bit smaller maybe it would be possible to Put the Buckle in a Vise? and just give a Squeeze and
Problem solved    Thats the Best my mind can Picture as a FIX


I sent one to Rick Rseiko and he loved it and was ordering another one   He LOL like myself commented on the Shininess and both Laughed at It will in time lose some of it;s shine or it will be Fine as it is.


GREAT STRAP
Nice Post

[swedefreak]

GREAT report, Jason!  Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Will's latest product is another feather in his cap to be sure and I hope folks have some appreciation for what it takes to go from concept to salable item.

Now in case anyone has any doubt about the frailty of vintage rubber straps, here's a copy of one of my posts from just a year ago:

[size=100%]Well, here I go again, poking the hornets' nest >>>>>[/size]July 29 2009 at 5:11 PM

Recently, there's been a ton of posting about rubber straps, new versus old, old NOS etc., etc., etc.        May this post serve as an extreme caution to all.         I received this NOS Capt. Willard waffle strap on a 6105-8110 sent for   case restoration.  The watch was packed very , very well but when I   gently stripped-off the layers of bubble-wrap this is what greeted me: 






As you can   see, it's very neatly broken across the last hole and in a direct line   with the low point of the waffle's pyramids.  The strap looks and feels as if it just came from the factory.  It appears to be supple and flexible but evidently is not. 
   
  This owner was very lucky the strap broke in transit and not while he   was wearing the watch in the few days prior to sending it to me. 
   
  Certainly, if one of these straps were put on a pristine watch to be   used only for display, fine.  But I do not believe we should trust our   beloved vintage Seikos to any strap that can fail at the least opportune   moment.     

[Seikozen]

Hi  I also went through the same thing that Swedefreak just posted. Two years ago  Ebay sale Beautiful Pristine 6105-811X w/ OEM Waffle
It was a BIN  I saw it few min after posting, I was very Lucky the seller was " CRAYFISH" I believe an old timer on the Forum


The Strap was in 5 pieces when I unwrapped it, I felt SICK  Picturing the Battle I was in for, but instead Crayfish said he had one more left
in his collection   he sent it it wound up being older but Did not Break, I learned that Day, when I put the pieces together it was such CLEAN BREAKS


hard to believe .  Last Year Rseiko sold Two ORG Waffles, I remember reading  how Both Broke when the Buyers received them,
Rick as Crayfish  Stood behind them, and I think was able to go to the Source he got them from.


POINT  I can PICTURE the Battles  that could have taken Place  On both Sides   Seller and Buyers    Because  The ORG Waffles  can look fine


Be Sent out in Perfect cond, and be delivered In Pieces .


I trust all of us that love 6105s and 6215 and 6159s  etc will be singing Will's Praise for many years to come, and those that will follow will have this
Quality of Strap to enjoy w/o Worry.

[seikomagic]

I suppose the type II will have the same problem as they get older and brittle, i intend buying one for my Dad's 6105 he won't be able to see it  because he is just about totally blind but i am sure the feel will put a smile on his face.
  I wonder if there is a preserver that can be purchased to keep it from going brittle.

[UpstandingCitizen]

Personally, I can't imagine spending +/- $300 for any rubber strap, so I think Will's are a total knockout and well worth the price.  $50 some-odd bucks is still a nice chunk of change, but it's a heck of a lot better than $300. 

[MolleS]

Wills new strap is just excellent!!!


As for the below quote, I believe that strap was NOT an original, but one of the repros that existed a couple of yeras ago. I had a few of those and the material was not right as they ALL broke the same way. Look at the part closest to the watch, looks nothing like an original, too "square".
I have never had ANY problems with an original waffle, they seem to last forever. And Wills new ones will probably be the same.


Will; next task would be the 6159 rubber, right (was it GL-731?)

GREAT report, Jason!  Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Will's latest product is another feather in his cap to be sure and I hope folks have some appreciation for what it takes to go from concept to salable item.

Now in case anyone has any doubt about the frailty of vintage rubber straps, here's a copy of one of my posts from just a year ago:

[size=100%]Well, here I go again, poking the hornets' nest >>>>>[/size]July 29 2009 at 5:11 PM

Recently, there's been a ton of posting about rubber straps, new versus old, old NOS etc., etc., etc.        May this post serve as an extreme caution to all.         I received this NOS Capt. Willard waffle strap on a 6105-8110 sent for   case restoration.  The watch was packed very , very well but when I   gently stripped-off the layers of bubble-wrap this is what greeted me: 






As you can   see, it's very neatly broken across the last hole and in a direct line   with the low point of the waffle's pyramids.  The strap looks and feels as if it just came from the factory.  It appears to be supple and flexible but evidently is not. 
   
  This owner was very lucky the strap broke in transit and not while he   was wearing the watch in the few days prior to sending it to me. 
   
  Certainly, if one of these straps were put on a pristine watch to be   used only for display, fine.  But I do not believe we should trust our   beloved vintage Seikos to any strap that can fail at the least opportune   moment.     

[UKRower]

Great review, Jason!! Thanks for that..

[Jan-10]

I just have gotten sick in the head waiting for mine. My new 6105 is getting near too... Once thay both land, I suspect all my watches will take a backseat to the combo. Bravo again Will for getting this project off the ground! Vintage straps are cool for museaum pieces, but not practical for those of us who wear our vintage divers. I think most guys want it to be exact, I know I do.

[speedtimer]

Im also waiting!Will please track it down

[Selym]

Personally, I can't imagine spending +/- $300 for any rubber strap, so I think Will's are a total knockout and well worth the price.  $50 some-odd bucks is still a nice chunk of change, but it's a heck of a lot better than $300.

No kidding!  I hope some day to stumble upon a cache of NOS Tropics.  Those seem to go for three digit prices, too!  I wish someone would make a decent reproduction or rubber, instead of silicone.


Myles

[Technoman]

Great review and I concur, these are absolutely wonderful and faithful reproductions of the original. I purchased three of these for my two 6105's and 62MAS and they look perfect on them.


The only issue I found that is in addition to the conclusions mentioned herein, is that there is very slightly more material (more like flash) on the inside edge at the lug end of the long strap. I tried two of the long straps on my 6217 and they both rubbed enough against the watch head to hinder its movement on the lug bar. I believe this additional material is merely from the mold (I had an old original that I could measure against, its clearance on the 6217 in the same location is minimal). 15 seconds with a sharp knife and a careful hand, all was resolved. This was not an issue on the 6105's as the distance between the watch head and the lug holes is slightly greater.


These comments are in not meant in any negative way, just wanted to add in case anybody possibly bumps into this on a 6217.

[Duarte1]

Here is my 6105 on a type II waffle from William. I love it!

[Seikozen]

I already wrote my strong Positive Feelings about the Waffles Will made.  I have a Question being that the SEIKO Name was Stamped on the Strap  Perfectly LOl


What makes it possible for So many Suppliers or this strap for example to USE SEIKO's Name??  I never thought much about it, and Know there were times I bought say Spring Bars or Other straps Gl831s =Z-22 That I thought were made by Seiko but were not??


I can only think of all the Reproduction Rolexes and Omegas and  IWC ETC   That I guess there is a LEGAL excepted way??


I kinda felt  at one time if the SEIKO Stamp was on something it had to be Seiko.   I see I am WRONG .


At the end of the Day   I am very happy with the Waffle Reproduction, made as Close to Perfect as I could have ever Imagined,
and WE the WIS community will find our ways to adjust the things as was written about already.


I can see Both sides of the Feelings concerning the SEIKO STAMP, but it seems to be the Norm these days?


At least it was done OUT in the OPEN, bringing Attention to the Straps Being Not NOS ORG.   Great Job.

[Isthmus]

Ok folks, please read the following, as this is the forum's official stance on the issue of non-original officially branded accessories.  This is post is for information only and any further posts regarding this here will be deleted.

The SCWF Staff is currently discussing the best way of handling the sale of non-original officially branded accessories.  SCWF's stance on counterfeit WATCHES is clear.  When it comes to officially branded aftermarket ACCESSORIES, we've traditionally ignored the issue (until now), much like pretty much every other   watch forum out there has done - mainly because accessories are not the   bulk of what is traded and they do provide a very real service and benefit to forumers.  Based on your recent comments we have decided to review that stance.  While I can't tell you what the final form of our new policy will take or how it will be implemented, I can tell you this much: The goal of any official policy change will not be to hurt   otherwise solid sellers who provide services forumers appreciate.  We have   to balance SCWF's needs with what is best for majority of members who make up the forum.  Sometimes implementing changes in a way that best   benefits everyone requires a gradual approach instead of an immediate   draconian one.  Just as we normally engage our members and commercial sellers when devising rule changes physical forum changes, we plan on consulting with different parties on how best to handle this.  If I had to guess, the implementation of a particular rule regarding this issue will probably have to be gradual so as to allow forumers and sellers time to adapt.  This doe not mean that we condone the practice or that we are not doing something about it.Your comments have not fallen on deaf   ears and the issue and our approach to solving it are being discussed by   the forum staff.  We will find a solution and apply it in the fairest manner we are able to.  There is no need to keep repeating the point.





Now back to our regularly scheduled programing.

[lambstew]

Bill's intention here was not to misuse the name, but to make a 1:1 museum quality strap and not an outright "fake". Anyone who knows Bill would know that he's not that kind of person and doesn't supply that kind of product. He's only filling a much needed collector's market niche for a strap which hasn't been offered by Seiko in over 30 years. I'm sure if he makes another run and demand remains strong, that he will not be including any name branding if this becomes a real issue.

I'm extremely pleased with mine as is Duarte, both of us posting our positive vibes about this on another forum. This isn't some cheap rip-off copy with the intention of fooling the collecting community, but a high quality 1:1 re-edition with all the original details intact.

Just my 2 cents,

Cheers,

Konrad

[Duarte1]

It's not like anyone is trying to deceive anyone here. Nor is this stealing any sales from Seiko, as Seiko no longer makes, sells or markets any 19mm waffle strap (as well as many other direly needed parts for the 6105s..). It is a long discontinued part, if Seiko were still still selling it, I could see it being an issue.
It's a 1:1 reproduction, so that those of us who still enjoy 30+ year old 6105s can have an "original" style strap.


Personally, I'd be just as happy if the strap were unsigned, or it could signed "Mickey Mouse" for all I care, I just want a durable, quality waffle strap in 19mm. 

[Isthmus]

Bill's   intention here was not to misuse the name, but to make a 1:1 museum   quality strap and not an outright "fake". Anyone who knows Bill would   know that he's not that kind of person and doesn't supply that kind of   product. He's only filling a much needed collector's market niche for a   strap which hasn't been offered by Seiko in over 30 years. I'm sure if   he makes another run and demand remains strong, that he will not be   including any name branding if this becomes a real issue.

It's not like anyone is trying to deceive anyone here. Nor is this stealing any sales from Seiko, as Seiko no longer makes, sells or markets any 19mm waffle strap (as well as many other direly needed parts for the 6105s..). It is a long discontinued part, if Seiko were still still selling it, I could see it being an issue.
It's a 1:1 reproduction, so that those of us who still enjoy 30+ year old 6105s can have an "original" style strap.

Guys thanks again but as was said above.  lets drop the discussion about the merits of the logo.  We are already working with Sellers to take care of things and don't want to have to start deleting posts.  lets move on and focus the topic in what is otherwise an excellent modern reproduction of a long gone vintage classic.

[TheTigerUK]

I have to say I tend to be a 100% bracelet guy but i tried this strap on my 8000 for a day and in many ways it was a joy to wear, looked good and felt good but i am idle and like the quick release on my bracelets but to hear a "nit picker"  Like Russell say how good it is and he has originals to compare it with then IMO the manufacturer should be congratulated for bringing this strap to the market for the guys who like them and can perhaps not afford an original or don't want to risk there original.

[Harry, Denmark]

I would also    like to add my opinion on the new waffle reproduction, which was lying waiting for me in the post box when I arrived home from vacation last week!


The compound used is soft and flexible, and the reproduction waffle appears to be pretty true to the original (caveat: which I have never owned or even seen, thanks in part to their scarcity and high cost...). A picture is as good as a thousand words, so:






Thanks to quality reproductions like this, and the excellent reproduction dials and bezel inserts (which are now perhaps almost as scarce as the original inserts) it is possible to restore otherwise unsalvageable pieces to close-to-original condition. While the dials, crowns and straps are labelled Seiko, they are sold as reproduction parts and many of our members can easily discern between original and reproduction (actually, all of us can, if we make the effort -  the Buyers Guides are a great help here too). A tip of the hat to our suppliers, for making the effort to make these - otherwise unobtainable - parts available to the community, at an affordable price.

[lambstew]

..anyhow..moving along..
 
I just wanted to mention that the "shiny" parts on the new version was intentional. Bill really liked that effect on the MM strap and felt it would update the look a bit. I really like the effect myself and hope this can be duplicated again and maybe refined even more if there is another run.
 
I think what would be really cool in future, would be to have an 'ultimate' waffle made with collector input via a poll..
 
Cheers,
 
Konrad

[Time]

I think the new one looks better than the old one.

[speedtimer]

the strap is indeed a great looking repros in all of the pics that I've seen here,all I know is that I'm excited and still waiting for it to arrive!

[gamboge]

I have long been intrigued by the 6105 and its waffle strap and found a good example on the wrist of a fellow who served me at a hardware store a while ago- unfortunately, he has resisted my attempts to talk him out of it due to its sentimental value.  In the process of thinking about that watch and how everyone seems to want one, I spent some time talking with a local rubber moulder about making some reproduction waffle straps. He worked out the mould costs (the expensive bit), the necessary rubber compound and the production costs and I can't remember how many I figured I'd have to sell to break even, but I think it was a couple hundred at what I thought I could sell them for- which was $50US.  I'm glad someone else picked up the gauntlet and has actually come up with a good product.  For my two cent worth, and having in my professional career had to deal with copies, forgeries and fakes of various types, I think it is unfortunate that the reproduction ones have the Seiko logo when they aren't a Seiko product. I was planning on leaving that part blank, but reproducing every other aspect as faithfully as possible.  It is o.k. to say the maker has no intention to deceive, but he has no control whether his buyer will then turn around and use it to deceive.  I'd be a bit upset if I had paid the collector's price of $300 for a genuine waffle and now reproductions which are difficult to tell from the original are for sale for 1/6th the price.  I got jumped on a while ago for saying I thought putting MM300 dials and hands in a Sumo was like putting a Rolex dial in a Tudor- so I'll probably cop it now again- but I really do think it comes down to integrity of the brand in the long run- and I think we on this forum should respect and support that. 

[UpstandingCitizen]

Here is my 6105 on a type II waffle from William. I love it!

Getting into vintage hasn't been my cup of tea, but I have to admit that I think this watch is totally awesome.  I really like that the case is asymmetrical due to the crown guards on the one side.   

Throwing it on one of William's repro waffle straps gives it a decidedly vintage feel as well.