Author Topic: Multiple diashocks...  (Read 1201 times)

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Offline Harry, Denmark

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Multiple diashocks...
« on: November 23, 2010, 08:26:55 PM »
...such as the extra three in the caliber 430 GS (soon to be mine  ;D )





 - can someone shed some light on which wheels, escapement components etc are diashocked, why they are, and whether this is continued in the current GS lineup, or if this was a 60s phenomenon which quietly dissappeared?


Thanks in advance!
"That a wristwatch is a small celestial theater. It is a small sky. A device for the measure of shadows." -Gabriel Gudding


Offline iButrusCor

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 09:34:12 PM »
...such as the extra three in the caliber 430 GS (soon to be mine  ;D )





 - can someone shed some light on which wheels, escapement components etc are diashocked, why they are, and whether this is continued in the current GS lineup, or if this was a 60s phenomenon which quietly dissappeared?


Thanks in advance!

I believe the only Diashock systems are on the balance pivots.
The others are Diafix.

Diafix doesn't have a shock absorbing mechanism like the Diashock; it's basically just a cap jewel that provides secure lube retention and a surface for the end of the escape wheel pivots, third wheel pivots and maybe second wheel pivots to ride against. This system off loads the pivot shoulders and puts the vertical load bearing on the ends of the pivots thus lowering resistance.

The number of Diafix locations seems to be directly related to the quality of the calibre using them.
For example, the older lower tier 66B movement only uses a pair on the escape wheel pivots while the higher tier 6660A uses them on the escape wheel pivots and the third wheel pivots...


I suspect that the more Diafix locations, the better the timekeeping of the movement could be due to reduced friction and positional variation.

A real watchmaker will probably be along shortly to sort this all out though  :))
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Offline jason_recliner

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 09:45:30 PM »
Thanks for the info Pete.
 
I don't know anything about them.  I just know I like 'em.

Offline Harry, Denmark

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 10:08:15 PM »
Thanks for the valuable reply. Do you know what the difference is between the diafix and regular cap jewels? Specifically, according to

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=933.0

the diafix are held in by a spring - what would the function of this spring be...to allow removal of the jewels for cleaning/maintenance?
"That a wristwatch is a small celestial theater. It is a small sky. A device for the measure of shadows." -Gabriel Gudding


Offline iButrusCor

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 10:22:34 PM »
Thanks for the valuable reply. Do you know what the difference is between the diafix and regular cap jewels? Specifically, according to

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=933.0

the diafix are held in by a spring - what would the function of this spring be...to allow removal of the jewels for cleaning/maintenance?

I'm not 100% certain but I think the Diafix jewels are the same as any functioning cap jewel other than being sprung. For example, the cap jewels on the 7s36...

at 9 an 11 o'clock from the hour wheel in the center are not sprung.

The spring provides a small amount of vertical shock protection as well as being the holder that keeps the cap jewel in place.
Y2K12 ... the end of WISdom as we know it or just more of the same? ;)

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Offline Harry, Denmark

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 10:35:26 PM »
Xcellent, thanks!
"That a wristwatch is a small celestial theater. It is a small sky. A device for the measure of shadows." -Gabriel Gudding


Offline nhoJ

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 11:53:49 PM »
I can't remember this but are both forms of cap spring system called Diashock?  The older version has the triple leaf look to it while the newer version as seen in the 7s has a different shape.

Offline iButrusCor

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 12:03:44 AM »
I can't remember this but are both forms of cap spring system called Diashock?  The older version has the triple leaf look to it while the newer version as seen in the 7s has a different shape.

No, Diashock has an additional spring that cradles the collar jewel that the pivot rides in. That spring allows the collar jewel to move around with g-forces.
The clover leaf spring simply holds the cap jewel in place and perhaps provides some vertical shock protection like the Diafix ones do.

I don't have a good picture of the Diashock spring but it looks sort of like one of the elements on an electric stove.
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Offline rileynp

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 04:53:23 AM »
Hi Harry,
You've gotten some good solid answers already, and here are some diagrams that show the general construction of these components.  Both taken from the Seiko Technical Manual, under "Items in common to all SEIKO watches"



In the Diashock set-up, there is one spring, which holds the hole jewel and cap jewel in the setting, but can allow them to momentarily shift laterally or axially when a force is applied to the balance in said direction.



In the Diafix system (which is found at all bearing points on your GS's train bridge, you fortunate fellow, you), the hole jewel is frictioned into its setting, and does not move thereafter in normal use.  The cap jewel is held in place over (but not touching, to allow a space for the oil to reside around the pivot) the hole jewel by a spring.  This spring should be thought of more so as a retaining device for the cap jewel than an actual dynamic spring- they aren't designed to really move under force the way diashock springs are, even though one version looks like the diashock spring-shape.  I suppose it is possible that an absolutely axial shock could be absorbed by movement of the spring and cap jewel, but I suspect the pivot would still receive damage. 

Diashock 's design (as with Kif, Incabloc, et al) is not only in the design of the jewel setting, but also in the staff's shoulders below the pivots (or in the roller's safety table in the case of Incabloc), which are designed to contact the jewel setting (or housing) before the jewels can move too far in any direction.  This is where the force of a large shock is distributed to and dissipated through.

I personally like diafix (and related oil-retention settings) because it tends to keep the bearing point more free from contamination, and typically results in lubrication lasting longer at that point than if it were a plain hole jewel only.  The removable cap jewel and spring is for simplifying service procedures and making sure absolute cleanliness can be obtained- it is not necessary, but it is helpful.  Here is one example of a system where the cap jewel is not removable, the Bulova Accutron 218:





The bridge is intended to be cleaned with the settings assembled (since they can't be taken apart, that's really the only way), though with ultrasonic cavitation these can typically be cleaned satisfactorily.  It helps that there are large cutouts around the hole jewels underneath to allow free passage of solutions to remove old oil and dirt.  Plus Accutrons don't kick up as much dirt and debris compared to a mechanical movement.

Oh, your last question about Diafix being a thing of the past: it is alive and well, check this great shot of a Spring Drive movement from Ron Decorte's article on Timezone:


Using Diafix on every possible pivot point in the train is a little over the top (in a good way to my mind), however, I can't say that I know of any other Seiko era that went to such lengths outside of the 60s and early 70s.  It is commonly accepted now in standard high-grade movements to use oil retention settings of some sort on the escape wheel pivots only, I don't know of many common calibers from any maker that go higher up to the other train wheels.
--Noah R.

Offline Cobrajet25

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 07:48:10 AM »

Fantastic post, Noah.  Great job breaking it all down!  ---A



Hi Harry,
You've gotten some good solid answers already, and here are some diagrams that show the general construction of these components.  Both taken from the Seiko Technical Manual, under "Items in common to all SEIKO watches"



In the Diashock set-up, there is one spring, which holds the hole jewel and cap jewel in the setting, but can allow them to momentarily shift laterally or axially when a force is applied to the balance in said direction.



In the Diafix system (which is found at all bearing points on your GS's train bridge, you fortunate fellow, you), the hole jewel is frictioned into its setting, and does not move thereafter in normal use.  The cap jewel is held in place over (but not touching, to allow a space for the oil to reside around the pivot) the hole jewel by a spring.  This spring should be thought of more so as a retaining device for the cap jewel than an actual dynamic spring- they aren't designed to really move under force the way diashock springs are, even though one version looks like the diashock spring-shape.  I suppose it is possible that an absolutely axial shock could be absorbed by movement of the spring and cap jewel, but I suspect the pivot would still receive damage. 

Diashock 's design (as with Kif, Incabloc, et al) is not only in the design of the jewel setting, but also in the staff's shoulders below the pivots (or in the roller's safety table in the case of Incabloc), which are designed to contact the jewel setting (or housing) before the jewels can move too far in any direction.  This is where the force of a large shock is distributed to and dissipated through.

I personally like diafix (and related oil-retention settings) because it tends to keep the bearing point more free from contamination, and typically results in lubrication lasting longer at that point than if it were a plain hole jewel only.  The removable cap jewel and spring is for simplifying service procedures and making sure absolute cleanliness can be obtained- it is not necessary, but it is helpful.  Here is one example of a system where the cap jewel is not removable, the Bulova Accutron 218:





The bridge is intended to be cleaned with the settings assembled (since they can't be taken apart, that's really the only way), though with ultrasonic cavitation these can typically be cleaned satisfactorily.  It helps that there are large cutouts around the hole jewels underneath to allow free passage of solutions to remove old oil and dirt.  Plus Accutrons don't kick up as much dirt and debris compared to a mechanical movement.

Oh, your last question about Diafix being a thing of the past: it is alive and well, check this great shot of a Spring Drive movement from Ron Decorte's article on Timezone:


Using Diafix on every possible pivot point in the train is a little over the top (in a good way to my mind), however, I can't say that I know of any other Seiko era that went to such lengths outside of the 60s and early 70s.  It is commonly accepted now in standard high-grade movements to use oil retention settings of some sort on the escape wheel pivots only, I don't know of many common calibers from any maker that go higher up to the other train wheels.

Offline Harry, Denmark

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 08:31:05 AM »
 
Good grief, Noah - FANTASTIC post - thanks...could we put this into the FAQ!?
"That a wristwatch is a small celestial theater. It is a small sky. A device for the measure of shadows." -Gabriel Gudding


Offline JohnN

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 06:06:37 PM »
Fascinating post, Noah! Thank you very much! 

4006-7000 6D38879


6619-9050 6714327 (missing crystal bezel)  :(

Offline otherlife-san

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 06:19:10 PM »
 :great: Great post and very good explanations! Thx!

Offline dschaen81

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Re: Multiple diashocks...
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 06:29:16 PM »
Thanks for the great explanation, Noah.
Even though I am a complete watch dummie, I now know my Diashock from my Diafix.
Best regards
Jan